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"racy" head sail for my furler?

Discussion in 'Sail Trim with Don Guillette' started by danstanford, Sep 21, 2017. Add this thread to a FAQ

  1. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    225 posts, 34 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    Not doing very well in our racing series despite improving tactics and sail trim so I am looking at other options to pick up the speed. Details below:
    -We often sail in light breezes though I am prone to going out in 20+ knots when we are racing and cruising.
    -sail must live on a furler since we often sail as a couple and easy is better!
    -Current sail has the UV cover falling off so I will need to spend some money on it this year.
    What do you Guys recommend? It seems none of the higher end sails are for furling applications, am I correct there?
    Dan
     


  2. Justin_NSA

    Justin_NSA

    Joined Jul 7, 2004
    4,574 posts, 685 likes
    Hunter 30T
    US Cheney, KS
    I don't think there is one sail that will meet all of the situations you mention. My $.02
     


  3. JRacer

    JRacer

    Joined Aug 9, 2011
    701 posts, 171 likes
    Beneteau 310
    US Cheney KS (Wichita)
    Don't think you are going to find any "high-tech" sails for a furler situation, although they may be out there. Check with your sailmaker. I have mine on a furler and it's Dacron with the UV cover. Sailing with a sail on a furler is never going to be as efficient a sailplan as a hanked on sail and the UV cover is not doing any favors for you on the leech - often hard to get a good shape for the exit so turbulence created. In addition, with the furler drum in place youy are not going to have the jib cut to be a "decksweeper" so you loose some sail area down low. These are the performance price you pay for the convenience of having the furler. My Selden Furlex can be reconfigured "relatively easily" to run either a furled sail or one that is not but it still runs up the sail track (i.e. not a hank on). Only upside to that is I could gain the decksweeper aspect and loose the UV cover. Would probably improve performance but likely not enough to justify the cost of the second sail and the hassle of reconfiguring once a week to race. If your sail is coming apart (cover coming off) perhaps it's time to replace rather than fix. A new sail versus a blown out sail will make a huge difference regardless of whether or not it's on a furler.
     


  4. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,768 posts, 2,100 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Any high-tech sail you want can be made for a furler. End of story.

    JR mentions the two small trade-offs; a loss of some sail area on the foot, and some loss of headstay sag control due to the extrusion. But both will be in the noise level for most casual racers. The UV sunbrella issue can be solved by using a jib sock, or using UV stickyback dacron as a cover.

    IMG_6382.JPG


    Some very high-tech One Design race boats have furlers as standard - The new J/121, Class 40, and the Volvo and Vendee boats to name some.
     


    FastOlson likes this.
  5. JRacer

    JRacer

    Joined Aug 9, 2011
    701 posts, 171 likes
    Beneteau 310
    US Cheney KS (Wichita)
    Clay: Good to know! And to see in your pic. And tell me about this "jib sock".
     


  6. jssailem

    jssailem

    Joined Oct 22, 2014
    5,536 posts, 1,832 likes
    CAL 35 Cruiser
    US Salem, Moored Port Everett WA
    JRacer... A JibSock is a cover that you pull to the top of your furled fore sail. It covers the fore sail. You can use any mast halyard that will pull up along the forestay (i.e. the Spinnaker halyard) and is as tall the forestay.
    As you pull the sock up you close the sock around the foresail. set it snug to the base of the sail and you have a cover for your foresail. Works great with a mast head rig. Can work with the fractional rig as long as you have a halyard that you can rig. Material is generally Sunbrella to give you UV protection. The advantage is when you remove the sock there is no additional material or weight to affect the sail for racing.
     


  7. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,768 posts, 2,100 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Looks kinda like this. The good ones will have intertwined drawstrings running the length that keep the thing from flapping in the breeze.

    739212CA-E80F-4F04-828F-E81F7C2AF472.jpeg
     


  8. danstanford

    danstanford

    Joined Aug 2, 2010
    225 posts, 34 likes
    Beneteau 323
    CA Cobourg
    Comments on the condition of my current jib? 115 furler measuring exactly what the manual says it should and trimming with the jib leads positioned as the manual says though the angle of the sheet is nowhere near what conventional wisdom says it should be. Placed per the manual, the sheet lead causes the angle of the sheet to be way above the middle of the luff, I am guessing it would intersect 10% of the way down. Set here the telltales break evenly.
     

    Attached Files:



  9. pateco

    pateco

    Joined Aug 12, 2014
    1,997 posts, 515 likes
    Hunter 31 (1983)
    US Pompano Beach FL
    Based on the pic in those conditions, I think the Jib car should be farther back. (Waiting for Jackdaw to tell me if I am correct?)
     


  10. walmsleyc

    walmsleyc

    Joined Feb 2, 2006
    359 posts, 15 likes
    Hunter Legend 35
    CN Kingston
    I've got a tri-radial cut norlam genoa. Sort of a compromise between a racing and cruising sail. Good cut, holds it shape and the norlam has good stretch and shape holding characteristics compared to plain dacron. My boat is a Hunter Legend 35 with the below deck furler. In theory, the tack could be right at the deck, but I had things cut so it's higher off the deck so the sail could sort of clear the pulpit when not close hauled. The clews on furling jibs are typically cut higher off the deck for furling so that the foot of the sail doesn't become a huge "bunch/bundle" of material when furled. North kept the amount of re-enforcing material at the tack and clew thinner than "normal" to facilitate furling and maintaining shape when partially furled (they say that there is no compromise on strength), and thus keep the clew a "little" lower.

    On the topic of UV protection. I opted for the adhesive back dacron. I thought it would have less bulk, drag, etc. but I'm not happy with the result. I'm now thinking about using a sock instead (and removing the dacron protection ... though it may be a sticky mess to remove). I find that the adhesive backed strip has developed a semi-permanent "curl" in the leach that matches the shape of the sail when it's furled. It will flatten out in once the breeze is up, but in light winds it looks awful ... on one tack it curls in ... a lot, and of the other tack, it curls outwards ... alot ... My previous sail has a blue sunbrella UV strip, and any residual curl was much less obvious (I don't remember it being much of a problem). But the sunbrella did make the leech more bulky.

    I think the glue between the layers, once it spends enough time in the sun softens and then takes a set.

    Using a sock, and the design of my Hood Seafurl Line Drive furler, I could alternate which way I roll up the sail at night, and perhaps equalize the curl I have.

    Chris
     


  11. pateco

    pateco

    Joined Aug 12, 2014
    1,997 posts, 515 likes
    Hunter 31 (1983)
    US Pompano Beach FL
    Has anyone here used North's new 3Di NORDAC Sails?
    They look really nice, and the Marketing BS sounds interesting.
    north-sails-lancia-rivoluzionario-3di-nordac-in-poliestere_31683.jpg
     


  12. weinie

    weinie

    Joined Sep 6, 2010
    1,163 posts, 181 likes
    Jeanneau 349
    US port washington, ny
    Teldar coating on one side of the leech. Has to be reapplied annually by the sailmaker but worth ever penny to have a race ready sail you don't have to drag up and hoist every time you want to go out. Perfect for boats that use small non-overlapping headsails that don't do sail changes.
     


  13. FastOlson

    FastOlson

    Joined Apr 8, 2010
    944 posts, 89 likes
    Ericson Yachts Olson 34
    US Portland OR
    Watch out for buzz words that take away meaning rather than add it, in discussions about sails.
    Sails do not have a "required use" stamped on them. Entering a race is an activity for sailors... an optional one. Like day sails and overnighting.

    After all, how and whether you tune up your car engine does not differentiate whether, where and how you drive it. :)
    Whether going to the store for milk, or entering a Saturday autocross, my car's powertrain is the same.
    I will stipulate that the couple of years we drove a lowered 122S two-door every day, including a multi-state vacation trip, was not one of my more practical ideas... awesome handling, but I had to dodge every stray pine cone and rock...)
    (I used to autocross often, as an alternative to rally's and working sports car races, back when the world was -much much- younger.)
     


    pateco likes this.
  14. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,768 posts, 2,100 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    Hard to say; you are not trimmed for upwind sailing that in that picture. The 'sheet bisecting the sail' is really written for that mode. Off the wind, you want all the telltales to fly, and you move the car based on lots of conditions.

    When in upwind trim, forget what any 'manual' says where the car should be, and set it first so the sheet does bisect the sail. If you get a chance, mark your clew with a sharpie or tape line to show it. Then adjust (an inch at a time) to get the telltales to fly correctly. Then mark this as a default location on the track. Note that them flying will also be effected by wind shear, gradient and velocity; so there is no fixed position! That's why remotely adjustable cars are so nice. Ours get moved as much as our traveler.
     


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  15. walmsleyc

    walmsleyc

    Joined Feb 2, 2006
    359 posts, 15 likes
    Hunter Legend 35
    CN Kingston
    What is Teldar?

    When I spoke to North about my issue, there was discussion about a paint of some sort, but they didn't think it would quite be a solution for me. I don't quite remember why.

    Chris
     


  16. Jackdaw

    Jackdaw

    Joined Nov 8, 2010
    8,768 posts, 2,100 likes
    Beneteau First 36.7 & 260
    US Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
    He meant TEDLAR. Its a stickyback mylar sail repair tape. I didn't know it had UV resistant capabilities.
     


  17. JRacer

    JRacer

    Joined Aug 9, 2011
    701 posts, 171 likes
    Beneteau 310
    US Cheney KS (Wichita)
    The sock looks like a good solution. Might have to get one of those for the next headsail and get rid of the traditional sun cover. Thanks for posting the pics and commentary.
     


  18. Justin_NSA

    Justin_NSA

    Joined Jul 7, 2004
    4,574 posts, 685 likes
    Hunter 30T
    US Cheney, KS
    You guys looked good yesterday! Only ones using a chute. That was a lot of wind!
    I wish I had known there was going to be a race. I would have taken my camera!
     


  19. weinie

    weinie

    Joined Sep 6, 2010
    1,163 posts, 181 likes
    Jeanneau 349
    US port washington, ny
    Yes.... tedlar... typo. thank you, JD.
     


  20. FastOlson

    FastOlson

    Joined Apr 8, 2010
    944 posts, 89 likes
    Ericson Yachts Olson 34
    US Portland OR
    We have a Martin 24 in the YC that uses a sock with a lace-tensioned cover. He likes it. The ability to tighten it and stop flapping of the cloth cover is a good thing to prevent wear/chafe in stronger winds.
     



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