News flash: cool fast boats sell.

[Daveinet]

I would contend the only real daysailor market must be trailerable/trailer launchable. When I was shopping to replace my old bowling ball with a sail, I was shopping the used markets daily for about a year straight. What I found was, that you could buy a trailer sailor that was slow, or a non-trailer sailor that was fast, but if you wanted a trailer sailor that is both fast and trailer launchable, they get snatched up quick and you pay a used price premium. As soon as you gave up trailer launch, or speed, the boats were a dime a dozen. Try and find something like a Holder 20 or Hobie Magic 25. They get snatched up very quick.

 

[jviss]

I would contend the only real daysailor market must be trailerable/trailer launchable.

Apparently, the only real market right now, for new sailboats, are big, expensive, non-trailerable daysailers, and big, 55'+ boats. I could be wrong, and I guess the trailerable market exists, 'though I'm not familiar; but I konw the high end daysailer market exists.

 

[Jackdaw]

Used to be part of that for sure, for some boats. Not sure about 30 foot coastal cruisers. Anyway, now regulations fix the amount of open drainage as a function of cockpit volume. And most are now open or partially open transom, which better solves the problem.

I would contend the only real daysailor market must be trailerable/trailer launchable. When I was shopping to replace my old bowling ball with a sail, I was shopping the used markets daily for about a year straight. What I found was, that you could buy a trailer sailor that was slow, or a non-trailer sailor that was fast, but if you wanted a trailer sailor that is both fast and trailer launchable, they get snatched up quick and you pay a used price premium. As soon as you gave up trailer launch, or speed, the boats were a dime a dozen. Try and find something like a Holder 20 or Hobie Magic 25. They get snatched up very quick.

Are you taking about new or used?

There really in no such thing as a used boat ‘market’, as there is no market driven way to satisfy demand.

 

[jviss]

There really in no such thing as a used boat ‘market’, as there is no market driven way to satisfy demand.

Wow, that's a can of worms you've opened. I completely disagree! On face value, that is. Perhpas I misunderstand what you are trying to express.

 

[sailnoproblem]

Are you taking about new or used?

There really in no such thing as a used boat ‘market’, as there is no market driven way to satisfy demand.

Wow try telling that to all the Brokers out there.
I have no marketing expertise or experience, so I guess that is my opinion. I always thought that if there is a product, and there are buyers for that product, then there is a market for said product.

 

[jviss]

as there is no market driven way to satisfy demand.

How about the resultant increase in prices due to unsatisfied demand inducing owners to offer their boats for sale?

Elasticity - the most fundamental principle of economics - supply and demand. Folks putting boats on the market that were previously not for sale is certainly a "market driven way to satisfy demand," and a much more responsive one than people starting businesses and designing, tooling up, and building boats.

 

[danm1]

"What costs $4-5k in the winter? Winter storage? "
Yep. In the metro NYC area. Rates start at around $60 foot, another $15 or more if you want shrink wrap, yards won't let you paint yourself due to environmental regs and charge $150 plus for a gallon of paint and $6-700 plus for labor and materials. $4-$500 if the yard winterizes engine and systems. Plus tax. $3500 is pretty much a minimum for a 30 footer...if nothing in particular needs to get repaired or replaced. My mooring is less than $2,000, but I figure if I sail 25 days it works out to about $220 a day just for upkeep, not counting the cost of the boat. And I'm shopping for a bigger boat. Go figure.

 

[dlochner]

I figure if I sail 25 days it works out to about $220 a day just for upkeep, not counting the cost of the boat.

Oh, never do the math. It just gets depressing.

 

[jssailem]

In the metro NYC area. .... yards won't let you paint yourself due to environmental regs .... Plus tax....

You got to love the NYC metro area thinking. They now are recovering their waters after decades of consumption and abuse. So you did not cause the water conditions but all boat owners get to pay for the condition cleanup. It is the pits coming along second.

And I'm shopping for a bigger boat. Go figure.

And why wouldn't ya

 

[agprice22]

RCR actively solicits used boats. They have several outlets: Buffalo, Rochester, Cleveland. They reach out to create a market for both used and new. That gives them a lot of power to shape a used market... and shape demand.

 

[jviss]

and charge $150 plus for a gallon of paint

That's about middle range, retail price for decent bottom paint. I've been paying over $200 for quite a few years for Interlux CSC or similar that I apply myself.

 

[Jackdaw]

How about the resultant increase in prices due to unsatisfied demand inducing owners to offer their boats for sale?

Elasticity - the most fundamental principle of economics - supply and demand. Folks putting boats on the market that were previously not for sale is certainly a "market driven way to satisfy demand," and a much more responsive one than people starting businesses and designing, tooling up, and building boats.

That's a 2nd or 3rd order effect. Nothing at all like someone building a new product at a price point and volume to meet demand. Have you ever heard of used boat prices going UP because a perceived shortage of boats?

 

[jviss]

That's a 2nd or 3rd order effect. Nothing at all like someone building a new product at a price point and volume to meet demand. Have you ever heard of used boat prices going UP because a perceived shortage of boats?

No it isn't! If you have some kind of academic evidence that it's a 2nd or 3rd order effect, I'd love to see it. The fact that prices don't go up does not mean that there's no market, which was a ridiculous assertion. I'll bet the market for used boats is much bigger than for new, many more transactions.

 

[jviss]

Have you ever heard of used boat prices going UP because a perceived shortage of boats?

Have you ever heard of new boat prices going UP because a perceived shortage of boats?
I don't even know what your point is.

 

[dlochner]

RCR actively solicits used boats. They have several outlets: Buffalo, Rochester, Cleveland. They reach out to create a market for both used and new. That gives them a lot of power to shape a used market... and shape demand.

And Erie, PA and Sodus Point, NY.

Don Finkle and crew at RCR know their business and they know that if they are to sell new boats they must sell used boats too. They also try to figure out the trends in racing, then buy a boat and campaign it. Right now they are actively campaigning a J70 and building a fleet in Western NY. Before that it was the Beneteua 36.7. When that boat's popularity began to fade, they sold theirs.

 

[dlochner]

That's a 2nd or 3rd order effect. Nothing at all like someone building a new product at a price point and volume to meet demand.

If there was a demand for a boat like the Pogo 36 in the US, someone would build it or Pogo would build a plant here to meet demand. Beneteau did that , Tanzer did that, Honda, Toyota, BMW, have all done that.

At the $300K level there just isn't much demand for a boat like the Pogo 36 here in the US. There is demand for new Catalina 36s and whatever 36 ft boat Beneteau and Jennaneu are selling, and for Island Packets. The US market is different from the French/European market.

Dealers in the US are going to be hesitant to invest money to sell boats for which there is little demand. Get a dozen Pogo 36s to race OD in Chicago and another dozen in Toronto and you'll begin to see more sold here.

 

[Jackdaw]

No it isn't! If you have some kind of academic evidence that it's a 2nd or 3rd order effect, I'd love to see it. The fact that prices don't go up does not mean that there's no market, which was a ridiculous assertion. I'll bet the market for used boats is much bigger than for new, many more transactions.

No one can manufacture used boats to satisfy a demand for Holder 21-style boats in the market. If there is not any for sale, there is none. No market. A 'market' requires flexible buyers and sellers.

 

[dlochner]

No one can manufacture used boats to satisfy a demand for Holder 21-style boats in the market. If there is not any for sale, there is none. No market. A 'market' requires flexible buyers and sellers.

Yes, the market for any particular boat model will be limited, used or new. That is especially true for the Holder 21, since none were built. Now the Holder 20 is different story. However, if you want a ~20' sailboat with a small cabin, keel, and trailerable, there are many available, the J22 and the Capri 22 come quickly to mind. I'm sure there are others.

If there are no Pogo 36s for sale in the US, then there is no market, just following your logic.

 

[Daveinet]

However, if you want a ~20' sailboat with a small cabin, keel, and trailerable, there are many available, the J22 and the Capri 22 come quickly to mind. I'm sure there are others...

NO, those are entirely different boats, which is why there are plenty available. Those boats both have fixed keels. They can only be trailer launched at a very limited number of ramps, with a bunch of playing around. J24 the same thing. As soon as you go to a swing or drop keel, the boats get hard to find and sell quick. The price jumps up a few thousand as well.

 

[dlochner]

NO, those are entirely different boats, which is why there are plenty available. Those boats both have fixed keels. They can only be trailer launched at a very limited number of ramps, with a bunch of playing around. J24 the same thing. As soon as you go to a swing or drop keel, the boats get hard to find and sell quick. The price jumps up a few thousand as well.

OK, I misread the Sailboatdata.com info and thought the Holder 20 was a keel boat, when it appears to be a lifting keel.

According to Sailboatdata.com only 265 of these boats were built. That suggests the design had limited appeal or the builders weren't very good at marketing or both. If the number of similar boats is also small, it again points to the small number of folks interested in these kinds of boats. That is sort of the point lots of people on this thread have been making. Yeah, there are cool boats that can sail well, however, for whatever reason, cost, aesthetics, availability, and so forth, not many are being made and sold in the US. That is neither right nor wrong, it is simply what the market in the US is.

Jack made a valiant attempt to stimulate interest in the Pogo and boats of similar design, but it didn't gain much traction for lots of reasons, prominent among them is few of us on SBO can afford to throw a third of a million dollars at a boat when one costing 10% of that serves our needs. It may also be the case that folks who have the money and resources to consider a new boat with a new design aren't on SBO, they're too busy making megabucks. If Jack can find the forum they're on perhaps he can get them interested in developing the market for these planing Euro style boats. If and when that happens, US builders will respond.
At this point after 360 posts I think we're