Deck Recoring....
- Thread starter dvideohd
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Please, please, please do not do this. Nothing sticks to this stuff, it has no structural rigidity and is not an appropriate product for use in a laminated environment as it will lead to delamination.
Under any fittings it is far better to laminate your own fiberglass boards or to use G-10 Garolite or a product called GPO-3. Sometimes a local plastics supplier will have access to pre-made fiberglass sheets that don't comply with mil spec or electrical code specs that will be less expensive than G-10 or GPO-3. Even plywood would be better than an HDPE like Starboard..
One of the most useful tools for a deck re-core is a oscilating tool like the Fein Multimaster. There are now some cheap knock offs but they don't work nearly as well as the Fein. I own both the Dremel version and the Fein. No comparison, but the Dremel is about 1/4th the price of the Fein if that is a performance measure that matters..
Another tool you may want is a 4" angle grinder. These are invaluable, with a 36 grit disc, for beveling the edges for re-attachment of the new skins..
great pics!!!!
MATHURIN2
The pics are truly great!!!.... I can see what to expect in the deck and know that the job is "doable"....
Maine Sail:
I have the Harbor Freight version of the Fein.. It's not great - but works well enough for occasional use. I also have the 4" angle grinder - which I have used for other things... I used these tools this summer to build a 2 story shed and do some garden work... Had not thought to use them on deck...
**************
From the pics, I see that the plywood appears butted against each other - and that there is no separation between blocks.... is that right? is that a "Marine Plywood" as well?
When looking at deck cores, good choices seemed to boil down to End Grain Balsa or Corecell... Marine Plywood or a specific version of Cork would work - but I am not so happy to use them...
I would give the "nod" to plywood for strength.... but it might not be necessary.... Balsa just keeps coming to the top of the list for bending and cost reasons...
cutting the sheets of balsa into squares and then laying them down with a small gap - filled with Epoxy does make a lot of sense to me...
Also... another test to do this week would be to hit the deck with a rubber (Harder type) tipped hammer - and do an accoustic/"feel" type test.. if there is separation - I would think to hear or feel the difference.... I will do this on my "grid" pattern - at about 6" intervals...
On the deck hardware - where there is a structural need - I had planned to use layers of 8oz fiberglass - stacked up. Might be a good place for some other weights as well.. Anyway - its a plan at this point......
--jerry
MATHURIN2
The pics are truly great!!!.... I can see what to expect in the deck and know that the job is "doable"....
Maine Sail:
I have the Harbor Freight version of the Fein.. It's not great - but works well enough for occasional use. I also have the 4" angle grinder - which I have used for other things... I used these tools this summer to build a 2 story shed and do some garden work... Had not thought to use them on deck...
**************
From the pics, I see that the plywood appears butted against each other - and that there is no separation between blocks.... is that right? is that a "Marine Plywood" as well?
When looking at deck cores, good choices seemed to boil down to End Grain Balsa or Corecell... Marine Plywood or a specific version of Cork would work - but I am not so happy to use them...
I would give the "nod" to plywood for strength.... but it might not be necessary.... Balsa just keeps coming to the top of the list for bending and cost reasons...
cutting the sheets of balsa into squares and then laying them down with a small gap - filled with Epoxy does make a lot of sense to me...
Also... another test to do this week would be to hit the deck with a rubber (Harder type) tipped hammer - and do an accoustic/"feel" type test.. if there is separation - I would think to hear or feel the difference.... I will do this on my "grid" pattern - at about 6" intervals...
On the deck hardware - where there is a structural need - I had planned to use layers of 8oz fiberglass - stacked up. Might be a good place for some other weights as well.. Anyway - its a plan at this point......
--jerry
As for core removal, here is what I suggest:
-A grinder with a 6in blade to cut the top skin (removal of the skin should be straight forward, on mine adherence was minimal everywhere) Make sure you cut the skin within 2.5in from the side to keep the shape.
-A flat prybar to remove the old core
-A 6in twisted wire brush (on the grinder) to remove the core in the sides
-A scraper to remove most of the leftover core
-A 6in disc with 36grain paper (on the grinder) to remove the bits of wood remaining
-As for core I went with core-cell, and denitively suggest you go that way.
-For the cabin top, I went with 4'X4' sheets (precut in 1in squares)
-For the side and the cockpit I used 6in wide strips
-Note all core is 3/4in tick except around the cabin top wich is 1/2in tick
-Remove the hatch slides and enclosure
-Remove the forestay rail
-If I had to do it again I would remove the dorade boxes
-If you have the money and the time go with epoxy. If I had knew how much resin I needed at the begining I would have saved buying a 45gal drum of epoxy instead of buying polyester in 5gal batch (I ended up using 40 gal).
-Buy at least 10 pounds of tickener (I used Aerosil)
-I used bricks to hold the core down
-Don't keep the old and leaky top skin, lay 3 coats of new fiberglass
-Use of rollers to lay the fiberglass is a minimum if you don't vacuum bag, this is what I did.
-I used tickened polyester to faire the whole deck.
-I used a stucco roller on tickened polyester for the nonskid (this significally reduces the need of fairing in the non-skid areas).
As for tools:
-A paint mixer to put on a drill
-An old drill you don't mind getting rid of at the end
-Some fiberglass rollers
-A bunch of wooden handel paint brushs (paid 1$ for 5)
-Plaster trowels
-Grinder with 6in sanding pad (36grit)
-Straight line sander (this is a must, 36in grit, 80grit)
-6in orbital sander (80grit)
-Fairing file
-Stucco rollers
-Lost of empty ice cream buckets (4liters ones)
As for primer and paint, I used a roller this is the way to go if you don't want to spend months fairing...
I probably forgot some details, if I think of some I will post later
-A grinder with a 6in blade to cut the top skin (removal of the skin should be straight forward, on mine adherence was minimal everywhere) Make sure you cut the skin within 2.5in from the side to keep the shape.
-A flat prybar to remove the old core
-A 6in twisted wire brush (on the grinder) to remove the core in the sides
-A scraper to remove most of the leftover core
-A 6in disc with 36grain paper (on the grinder) to remove the bits of wood remaining
-As for core I went with core-cell, and denitively suggest you go that way.
-For the cabin top, I went with 4'X4' sheets (precut in 1in squares)
-For the side and the cockpit I used 6in wide strips
-Note all core is 3/4in tick except around the cabin top wich is 1/2in tick
-Remove the hatch slides and enclosure
-Remove the forestay rail
-If I had to do it again I would remove the dorade boxes
-If you have the money and the time go with epoxy. If I had knew how much resin I needed at the begining I would have saved buying a 45gal drum of epoxy instead of buying polyester in 5gal batch (I ended up using 40 gal).
-Buy at least 10 pounds of tickener (I used Aerosil)
-I used bricks to hold the core down
-Don't keep the old and leaky top skin, lay 3 coats of new fiberglass
-Use of rollers to lay the fiberglass is a minimum if you don't vacuum bag, this is what I did.
-I used tickened polyester to faire the whole deck.
-I used a stucco roller on tickened polyester for the nonskid (this significally reduces the need of fairing in the non-skid areas).
As for tools:
-A paint mixer to put on a drill
-An old drill you don't mind getting rid of at the end
-Some fiberglass rollers
-A bunch of wooden handel paint brushs (paid 1$ for 5)
-Plaster trowels
-Grinder with 6in sanding pad (36grit)
-Straight line sander (this is a must, 36in grit, 80grit)
-6in orbital sander (80grit)
-Fairing file
-Stucco rollers
-Lost of empty ice cream buckets (4liters ones)
As for primer and paint, I used a roller this is the way to go if you don't want to spend months fairing...
I probably forgot some details, if I think of some I will post later
WOW Big Project. Thanks for the photos. Super. And you did this with the stick up. I would never have guessed that the whole deck was originally blocks of ply. Is that balsa coring I see? What laminations did you use to build the deck back up?
Sorry guys, I should have read the rest of the entries. Mainesail - thanks for the advice on starboard. I am sure you are right. Steve - thanks for the Harbour Freight gelcoat peeler link. Didn't know they had one. Does it work well?
I used 1810 (18oz biaxial (0/90) with 10oz mat, 50" wide) 3 to 4 layers, by the way you will almost need a full roll (50yd if i remember well). No balsa core was used only core cell (it's precut to follow the shape better) only downside is that it takes a bit more resin to fill all gaps.
Wow Mathurin. Job looks great. Labor of love, no doubt. You could not charge enought for a job like that. It take a lot of perseverance to see it to the end. That was not a small job. Congrats.
(deep down I know I am headed the same way, however I choose to pick smaller fights right now)
Jose' Guidera
S/V Bonheur
(deep down I know I am headed the same way, however I choose to pick smaller fights right now)
Jose' Guidera
S/V Bonheur
Thanks for the great H37C Pics
Mathurin
It's an awesome job, alright!!!
Could you comment on how you planned the project, time, and why you decided to do the full deck recore? I think all here with our "vintage" H37Cs know that this is something that we need to think about... with 25+ years of weathering, water intrusion may have done a "real number" on a lot of decks.. I doubt that anyone would have thought to do a serious job on deck hardware - water intrusion prevention - 25 years ago - even had they had Maine Sail's excellent guide on "how to do it".
I can see that it would be easy to start in one spot - and then find that you are into a whole deck rework - before you know it. I am prone to stumble into starting a job - and then find out that it is a lot bigger and more expensive than I originally thought. So it's good to have a real idea on how to scope out and plan a project from the beginning. It's been pointed out that if you plan the job, that you may be able to cut Epoxy, Fiberglass, and Core material costs by half...
Time is also something very hard to scope out.... If I can swing it, I was planning on a Spring-Summer project timeframe. I would need to have all the tools in place by then, have supplies on hand, have scaffolding in place (really important), have the deck hardware removed, and everything prepped before hand. Transom repair and deck/hulll repair would need to be done before then too....
Thanks for posting the pictures - they are really helpful - and useful to all of our fellow 37C owners.
--jerry
Mathurin
It's an awesome job, alright!!!
Could you comment on how you planned the project, time, and why you decided to do the full deck recore? I think all here with our "vintage" H37Cs know that this is something that we need to think about... with 25+ years of weathering, water intrusion may have done a "real number" on a lot of decks.. I doubt that anyone would have thought to do a serious job on deck hardware - water intrusion prevention - 25 years ago - even had they had Maine Sail's excellent guide on "how to do it".
I can see that it would be easy to start in one spot - and then find that you are into a whole deck rework - before you know it. I am prone to stumble into starting a job - and then find out that it is a lot bigger and more expensive than I originally thought. So it's good to have a real idea on how to scope out and plan a project from the beginning. It's been pointed out that if you plan the job, that you may be able to cut Epoxy, Fiberglass, and Core material costs by half...
Time is also something very hard to scope out.... If I can swing it, I was planning on a Spring-Summer project timeframe. I would need to have all the tools in place by then, have supplies on hand, have scaffolding in place (really important), have the deck hardware removed, and everything prepped before hand. Transom repair and deck/hulll repair would need to be done before then too....
Thanks for posting the pictures - they are really helpful - and useful to all of our fellow 37C owners.
--jerry
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Sorry if I missed the answer above. But how did you deal with the main source of water ingress on the H37C, the toerails? It is hard to see how the coring fits under the toerail.
Toe rails aren't an issue (from what I saw), as the toe rail is screwed trought solid fiberglass. Core stops about 1 inch before the toe rail, then the bottom layer merges with the top layer. The only concern in that area is that the top layer is really thin (scary thin if I may say so), in some area there seems to be just one layer of fiber. Removing the toe rail and adding a layer all the way to the side would be a good idea if someone is planning to do a perfect job, but for my part, I left it that way (I took in consideration that if it lasted 25+ years this way, and removing the toe rail didn't fit in the tight scedule)
As for planning, I would say that being retired is a big plus if you plan on doing a job like this (it'very time consuming 1300h +). As I live in Canada, where outhaul are necessary during winter, I decided to use that time out of the water to work on the deck.
I decided to do a full deck recore because after inspection, the cabin top was 100% delaminated, the sidewalks 75% wet/50% delaminated, and the cockpit was 100% delaminated. So instead of playing the guessing game on where the rot stopped, I decided to open the whole thing. The only rot left is on the cabin sides, as I've not decided yet what future I reserve to the cheap plastic portholes....
Oh by the way, it's a good idea to check chain plates for corrosion when the core is removed, as when stainless is deprived from oxygen, it's prone to crevice corrosion. That said, it was not the case on my boat.
As for planning, I would say that being retired is a big plus if you plan on doing a job like this (it'very time consuming 1300h +). As I live in Canada, where outhaul are necessary during winter, I decided to use that time out of the water to work on the deck.
I decided to do a full deck recore because after inspection, the cabin top was 100% delaminated, the sidewalks 75% wet/50% delaminated, and the cockpit was 100% delaminated. So instead of playing the guessing game on where the rot stopped, I decided to open the whole thing. The only rot left is on the cabin sides, as I've not decided yet what future I reserve to the cheap plastic portholes....
Oh by the way, it's a good idea to check chain plates for corrosion when the core is removed, as when stainless is deprived from oxygen, it's prone to crevice corrosion. That said, it was not the case on my boat.
Get in line Richard, he has to come to Maryland first and do my boat. Fantastic job, Mathurin
Not so fast. After Mathurin2 leaves Maryland, and on his way to Alabama, please stop in Myrtle Beach, S.C. and do mine.
By the way, did I mentioned we have over 120 golf courses and over 1200 restaurants?? How do you feel about staying in an ocean front condo??
Cheers.
Jose Guidera
S/V Bonheur
By the way, did I mentioned we have over 120 golf courses and over 1200 restaurants?? How do you feel about staying in an ocean front condo??
Cheers.
Jose Guidera
S/V Bonheur
Nida Core
I got a Nida Core sample box in today... it was pretty neat...
Honeycomb, End Grain Balsa, Various foams.. really useful to get a good look and feel of materials and how they will feel.. My son is planning to build a light sailboat - and we got a good chance to talk about coring, deck hardware, and how to use composites..
In 1972 I got a chance to see some of the projects that Buckminster Fuller was working on. One of them was a battery powered people transporter - that looked amazingly like the mini-Vans we see everywhere now.. He used fiberglass & coring for the body. Batteries mounted mid-ship - and it had good range... I always wondered what happened to it.... It was at Southern Illinois University.
Fuller did cars very early - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_car and those '30s cars got 30mpg and seated 11. The ones I saw almost looked like a chrysler minivan of the mid 1980s...
Coreing is a good thing to understand...
--jr
I got a Nida Core sample box in today... it was pretty neat...
Honeycomb, End Grain Balsa, Various foams.. really useful to get a good look and feel of materials and how they will feel.. My son is planning to build a light sailboat - and we got a good chance to talk about coring, deck hardware, and how to use composites..
In 1972 I got a chance to see some of the projects that Buckminster Fuller was working on. One of them was a battery powered people transporter - that looked amazingly like the mini-Vans we see everywhere now.. He used fiberglass & coring for the body. Batteries mounted mid-ship - and it had good range... I always wondered what happened to it.... It was at Southern Illinois University.
Fuller did cars very early - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_car and those '30s cars got 30mpg and seated 11. The ones I saw almost looked like a chrysler minivan of the mid 1980s...
Coreing is a good thing to understand...
--jr
Working with Marine Plywood and other Coring Materials...
I do not have much experience working with Marine Plywood. I went looking for more information and found a SUBSTANTIAL amount of information, techniques, pictures, and tool info in the are of Sea Kayaks...
THere is a REAL BOOM in making wooden boat "Sea Kayaks" out there. I found a number of very good books on how to "do it" as well as a VAST amount of picture and decription info.
The Kit Kayak products often rely on two methods: (a) strip built and (b) marine plywood with either 3 or 4 mm plywood - "Stitch and Glue".
In "Stitch and Glue" construction - a sandwich "composite" is made. So a 3 or 4 mm marine plywood is (a) sealed with epoxy, (b) then Layers (inside and outside) with 6 oz (+/-) fiberglass & Epoxy are applied, and (c) then final coats of epoxy for faring. The results are amazingly strong and extremely beautiful.
A 21', tandem wood Kayak might weigh all of "68 pounds". That is not a lot...
Now working on a deck recore job is not the same.. but tools, techniques, methods, and construction planning have some similarity.
If interested, I can post the books I found - and am still reading..
For myself, there is always an element of planning. I don't want to buy tools I don't need - but I DO want to get the needed tools.. All know of the time waste that can happen when you DON'T have a tool - or have the wrong one. I also have a budget to live with - and I most certainly can't overspend. So I spending time planning and trying to come up the knowledge curve.. I found a number of Kayak building books that have helped increase my knowledge....
--jerry
I do not have much experience working with Marine Plywood. I went looking for more information and found a SUBSTANTIAL amount of information, techniques, pictures, and tool info in the are of Sea Kayaks...
THere is a REAL BOOM in making wooden boat "Sea Kayaks" out there. I found a number of very good books on how to "do it" as well as a VAST amount of picture and decription info.
The Kit Kayak products often rely on two methods: (a) strip built and (b) marine plywood with either 3 or 4 mm plywood - "Stitch and Glue".
In "Stitch and Glue" construction - a sandwich "composite" is made. So a 3 or 4 mm marine plywood is (a) sealed with epoxy, (b) then Layers (inside and outside) with 6 oz (+/-) fiberglass & Epoxy are applied, and (c) then final coats of epoxy for faring. The results are amazingly strong and extremely beautiful.
A 21', tandem wood Kayak might weigh all of "68 pounds". That is not a lot...
Now working on a deck recore job is not the same.. but tools, techniques, methods, and construction planning have some similarity.
If interested, I can post the books I found - and am still reading..
For myself, there is always an element of planning. I don't want to buy tools I don't need - but I DO want to get the needed tools.. All know of the time waste that can happen when you DON'T have a tool - or have the wrong one. I also have a budget to live with - and I most certainly can't overspend. So I spending time planning and trying to come up the knowledge curve.. I found a number of Kayak building books that have helped increase my knowledge....
--jerry
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