Is it worth saving?

[mark_swart]

First off, a Beneteau is a great boat that makes it worth consideration of saving.
The headliner issues are well-documented and common to all Beneteaus of that era -- there are a few different ways to fix it. Total replacement of the vinyl is the 'right' way, but most people scrub the back of the foam and the fiberglass with a wire brush and then glue it back up. Paying someone else to do the woodwork be cost prohibitive -- you'll never get that money back and it will be a LOT of money. IF you can do the work yourself and intend on keeping the boat for a while, and you get a great deal, it might be worthwhile. But chances are no work that you do will look quite like what came in there, so when you go to sell, it's going to hurt your pricing. Having owned and sold a Beneteau First 285, I can tell you the people who are in the Beneteau market are pretty picky and expect everything to be right if you are asking anything near book value.
So if you know this is the boat you want and are going to keep it for a long time, you might be able to get a very good-sailing boat for much less than a comparable one.

I'll tell you who should really jump on a boat like this -- a serious PHRF racer. Strip the interior, get some plastic sails and race it to death!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

If the diesel and rigging are good to go, that's big on the plus side. If you think that all you need to do is replace the bulkhead and liner, you could make it nice and functional relatively easily. Restoring it to the demanding tastes of another buyer would be a different story.

Your situation makes a big difference. Project boats like this are great for somebody who doesn't mind spending the money and taking the time to learn how to make improvements. The knowledge you gain in the meantime is priceless. I think you could make this ready to sail for less than $5 K (assuming hull, keel, rudder, rigging, sails and electronics are in decent condition). How much you want to spend to make this mint could be limitless. Making it marketable is also a question mark. Don't plan on restoring and selling to recover your costs. The money you put into it should be worth it to you and you alone, otherwise, forget it.

But overall, I think a Bene First would be a worthwhile boat to get into, for sure.

 

[arelic1949]

Run away. Now. Go find yerself a project that is not never ending, AND that you CAN complete. Good luck in the search<.>

 

[Rubato]

Thank you all for the comments. Some funny, some serious, and I am grateful for them all. I have decided to pass on the boat. He was asking $12K and came down to $7K. I told my wife if he was to give it to us we would still be into it for about 2 years worth of work and at least $6 or $7k of fixing money. I was falling into the trap of seeing something that should never have happened to a nice boat and thinking I could bring her back. Unfortunately I think it will just sit there another 5 years rotting away. Sad, sad, sad.
I will never understand why people let this happen when they could just donate it to a person or group who would take care of it. Either way, you're out the money give it away or let it rot.

Thanks again,
I'll keep looking

 

[mark_swart]

For the most part, you could fix the liner and the bulkhead and then piddle with the other stuff as you go. I disagree about having to have it in your back yard up on block. Fix the little screwed up cabinetry piece by piece over time. Finally, put in a nice teak and holly laminate floor like what comes in the new boats.
A comparable First 285 would be $20K plus. The 29s are harder to come by but probably in the high-teens still.
But either way, there lots of good old boats out there and it's still a buyers market. Keep looking and something will come up. Or go back to this guy in a couple months and offer to take it for $5K : ) !

 

[zmaxpilot]

It really boils down to do you have the time and skills necessary to undertake a project such as this. It will take a lot of time and considerable expence to make her sea worthy. What you have going for you is that you have a reasonably sound hull to start with. The larest factor is the time, this will be a long term project, nothing quick or easy. If you are trying this to make some money on the finished project then forget it. If on the other hand you want to do this for self gradification in accomplishing something that few people can claim, then have at it. As the finished project is something that you have done yourself. The truth of the matter is you will have to completely gut the boat. Be careful disassembling it as you will need the removed parts for patterns to construct the new interior parts, and you will be able to say with pride as you lounge on a summer day or evening with friends, " I did this, I completely restored this boat myself." Take lots of pictures and make detailed drawings of the parts you remove before you remove them as a reference to reassemble. I speak from experience, I am in the 2nd year of a complete restoration of a McGreggor Venture 24. The boat was left outside for several years and actually was nearly filled with water. I picked this boat up for next to nothing complete with a dual axle trailer. I figgure that I will have about 8 to 10 thousand in it when I am finished. That is not the point though, I will have a very rewarding experience and a wonderful craft to sail when I am finished with many of my own ideas of how I want it to be when it is finished. And who knows, if the right person comes along after it is completed, there could be another project in the future. Good luck with your boat if that is your choice.

 

[Jackdaw]

Thank you all for the comments. Some funny, some serious, and I am grateful for them all. I have decided to pass on the boat. He was asking $12K and came down to $7K. I told my wife if he was to give it to us we would still be into it for about 2 years worth of work and at least $6 or $7k of fixing money. I was falling into the trap of seeing something that should never have happened to a nice boat and thinking I could bring her back. Unfortunately I think it will just sit there another 5 years rotting away. Sad, sad, sad.
I will never understand why people let this happen when they could just donate it to a person or group who would take care of it. Either way, you're out the money give it away or let it rot.

Thanks again,
I'll keep looking

Reasoned approach.

Just wondering, did you find the source of the water ingress? I have to image the front deck hatch was left cracked open, or the fixed deadlight leaked. I've never seen a Beni leak like that thru the deck.

With enough gumption, the headline would have been a long weekend project, if you were willing to just paint the clean fiberglass white. Many do.

The wood would have been a much bigger issue. Getting that to look right (never mind any structural damage) would have take time and money.

As T-bird says, then the rest of the systems have to be OK.

But it makes total sense for you to pass. Projects like this had to almost scream inside your head, 'I can do this!'. If they don't, walk away. Lots of good boats out there. As other noted the 285 is a great boat.

 

[TerryGufshoz]

Is this boat, if well cared for, would be the boat of your dreams? Do you enjoy handyman projects and you're reasonably proficient at them? Do you have the patience to go slow and enjoy the progression? If yes, negotiate to the lowest price and get the boat. Fix the structural issues ( bulkhead and water ingress) and sail the boat. Work on the cosmetic problems as you feel the urge and have the time/money.
You could have your cake and eat it, too.
If your boat has to be in bristol condition before you'd be seen in her, buy a different boat. But remember, EVERY boat is an ongoing project.

 

[BobM]

Common Path

We went down a similar path, but ultimately decided to take out a small boat loan, which is tax deductible in most cases as a vacation home if there is a fixed head and galley. We found the best 9.2A we could and the previous owner STILL had to fix rot in the bulkheads noted during the survey. Luckily the design made that much easier than it is on most boats, as the chainplates are mounted on a smaller, second layer mounted on top of the bulkhead. It is worth noting that there was a cosmetic cover up in place to hide it too. If you can't afford a survey you can't afford the boat!

 

[BobT]

Congratulations! You will never regret passing that nightmare by. There are plenty of sail-away boats on the market for very reasonable prices.

 

[dtwofoot]

Only you can know if your capable and want to do the work. I'm replacing my rotten settee and bulkhead and love it. But thats me, do you know yourself well enough to make the right decision. If so, Follow you dream and forget the naysayers!

 

[25yearslater]

For a detailed description you can see http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=123244 This is what I was able to accomplish in 2 years. The current last page has the finished cost. Essentially it is a new boat at 1/3 the cost.

 

[Jackdaw]

For a detailed description you can see http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=123244 This is what I was able to accomplish in 2 years. The current last page has the finished cost. Essentially it is a new boat at 1/3 the cost.

Very very nice job. But with respect, it is NOT a new boat. Its a very well maintained 30 year old boat, and a 30 year old design. New 27 footers will be much faster, much more comfortable, and easier to sail, with less crew and effort. Just like restoring cars. They never get newer.

 

[Chris Patterson]

I'd rather had the older rebuilt boat. Joe strikes me as a craftsman, and I can't help but think that it is reconstructed and sealed up better than it EVER was. Or even a new one.
Unless they are the "higher end" boats, most of them I deal with are almost alarming in their construction techniques. I know the bottom line dictates this in most economies, but they generally don't build them with a warranty like a Honda. Or most boat manufacturers would be out of business in short order.

 

[Jackdaw]

I'd rather had the older rebuilt boat. Joe strikes me as a craftsman, and I can't help but think that it is reconstructed and sealed up better than it EVER was. Or even a new one.
Unless they are the "higher end" boats, most of them I deal with are almost alarming in their construction techniques. I know the bottom line dictates this in most economies, but they generally don't build them with a warranty like a Honda. Or most boat manufacturers would be out of business in short order.

I'm totally with you; he's done a an amazing job. My only point is that boat technology HAS come a long way in 30 years. Sadly the US market for small boats almost evaporated in the past 20 years... Quick poll: who has a sub-30 footer here that is less than 20 years old (1993 or newer)? I bet not many.

But the builders are coming back, with fast boats easily sailed by 2 or raced with 3. I saw a post on sailinganarchy that noted that sailboats in this range has typically cost twice what a new car cost. He noted that a 1980 Catalina 22 was $8000, and the Toyota pickup he bought was $4000. With the average price of a new car at 25k, why are we surprised that new boats are $50k+??

 

[rgranger]

... Quick poll: who has a sub-30 footer here that is less than 20 years old (1993 or newer)? I bet not many.

Good point... or at least half the argument.

I've owned 6 sailboats in the past 12 years and all of them have been from the 1970's

Truth is... for a few grand you can get a really nice hull (thicker than today's) and all of the poorly made stuff has already broken and been replaced.

It is hard to justify (speaking for myself) spending a lot of money on a new boat... only to have to spend even more to get the toys I want... and then do a "shake down" to figure out what is going to break.

For what a new boat costs (talking sub 30') you can find a well maintained one... throw in a some new toys and you have it.... at 10% of the price.

It is a shame that there arn't many people still building these boats. General Boats is still in business (The Rhodes 22) But Stan (the owner) won't live forever and he is getting up there.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Oh shoot yeah. No, I wasn't trying to be argumentative one iota, as I totally agree with you. (My typing fingers get ahead of my brain sometimes). I DO actually see better constructions now-a-days, but I continue to be baffled. While there is little doubt that some of these boats built around the hey day of the 80's were thrown together with an ax, I still catch some oddities. I'm doing some interior work on a super fitted out I.P 380 right now, I mean beautiful. The sea-cocks/through-hulls would bring a tear to Maine Sails eyes.
And regular old hardware looking clamps. I would have expected an Aba, or AWAB, but...
I suppose they are all stainless, but I've not checked 'em yet. They are indeed doubled, but that's probably necessary now for certification. But after building a four hundred thousand dollar boat, why get cheesy on a few clamps?
Sorry, I'm kinda ranting I guess..

 

[25yearslater]

Thank you all for your kind comments. One factor I considered before I began, aside from money, was what did the older boat offer in terms of future longevity? With the older boat we have the opportunity to examine what failed and why. This lends itself to creating a second permutation of the prototype if you will. I won't dispute the new boat will sail circles around me but should it be caught offshore in heavy weather will it prove as seaworthy or even as sea kindly as the older design especially after a few years. The newer designs seem to be exploring planing or semiplaning flat bottoms. With the bulb keels on long extensions how does the load moment impact the stress of the mounting. Also let's consider the multiple component structure that yields a very light hull but what happens if one component fails. I don't discount the new boat is a naval architecture wonder but it will be proven as time progresses. A great deal depends on the individual. I won't deny the herculean task it was to bring YOT back. I would suggest reading the thread and consider all the points I did before embarking on such an arduous task. I saw more restorations busted up than completed in the four years I worked in a marina.

 

[Jackdaw]

Thank you all for your kind comments. One factor I considered before I began, aside from money, was what did the older boat offer in terms of future longevity? With the older boat we have the opportunity to examine what failed and why. This lends itself to creating a second permutation of the prototype if you will. I won't dispute the new boat will sail circles around me but should it be caught offshore in heavy weather will it prove as seaworthy or even as sea kindly as the older design especially after a few years. The newer designs seem to be exploring planing or semiplaning flat bottoms. With the bulb keels on long extensions how does the load moment impact the stress of the mounting. Also let's consider the multiple component structure that yields a very light hull but what happens if one component fails. I don't discount the new boat is a naval architecture wonder but it will be proven as time progresses. A great deal depends on the individual. I won't deny the herculean task it was to bring YOT back. I would suggest reading the thread and consider all the points I did before embarking on such an arduous task. I saw more restorations busted up than completed in the four years I worked in a marina.

That's a great post. I've followed your YOT project for quite a while; it's awesome and I have to say I have a soft spot for o'days... I lusted after a 28 for longer than I care to admit.

I hear your points about new boats, but will like to make a small counter point... I think older boats are overbuilt because the designers of the day did not fully understand the materials they were working with, or what loads they could take. I smile when someone talks proudly about their boats 1 inch solid glass hull. To me I just see thousands of pounds of excess resin that slows the boat down. Likewise, new keels and rigs are engineered with advanced tools that model loads with FEA. Lighter, stronger, faster.

Will the new boats last 40 years? Probably. I don't know. Maybe the real question is, SHOULD they still be relevant? We buy new cars because they are so much better. New boats are better but not to the same degree.