How good an investment is restoring your boat?

[jfrench]

http://www.chipford.com/cost.htm

Want proof of the return on your investment and hours of labor? Chip Ford is advertising his boat for sale (sail?).

 

[whatcaneyedo]

I love his site. I began reading through his many projects early last year, long before I bought my fixer-upper. Some of us have a lot of free time and enjoy tinkering and working with out hands. If I wanted to put money into something as an investment that would offer returns I'd have bought gold.

 

[CaptGregg]

My boat is worth more to me than it is to anybody else, upgraded and repaired or not.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Investment and boat cannot be included in one sentence. I read one time where that dude had 35, or 45 thousand dollars tied up in that boat. That he's trying to sell for 15. Good luck on that one. That kind of money, I'd be on a 30' Alberg.
How in the hell a "sane" man can put that much money in a 22' is mind boggling to me.

 

[anchorclanker]

What does restored mean? If it means "like new", it can cost more than a new boat, but you still have an old boat thats worth less than a new boat.

If restored means clean, tidy, functional, and presentable, much depends what your starting with, and what you paid for it.

I keep eying a cat 27 thats been neglected. It needs the cushions thrown out, cabinetry refinished, and a lot of cleaning. Not sure about the Atomic engine either. If I could get it for $500 I might buy it, but not much more. I dont think I could ever make any money on it, but I might be able to get a decent boat and some knowledge out of the experience.

 

[CaptGregg]

Good luck with the Catalina 27. Sounds like a little elbow grease and a few dollar bills you could have a nice one.

What does restored mean? If it means "like new", it can cost more than a new boat, but you still have an old boat thats worth less than a new boat.

If restored means clean, tidy, functional, and presentable, much depends what your starting with, and what you paid for it.

I keep eying a cat 27 thats been neglected. It needs the cushions thrown out, cabinetry refinished, and a lot of cleaning. Not sure about the Atomic engine either. If I could get it for $500 I might buy it, but not much more. I dont think I could ever make any money on it, but I might be able to get a decent boat and some knowledge out of the experience.

 

[anchorclanker]

Good luck with the Catalina 27.

I dont even know if its available, its just a derelict the lot owners are trying to figure out who the owner is. Like I say, it would have to be pretty cheap, ive read enough and seen enough to know when to look somewhere else.

Kind of like there is no cheap boat, there probably is no investment in restoring them. Like airplanes, you do it because its something you do because you enjoy doing it.

 

[centerline]

there is no such thing as an "investment" in a boat, new or used.... unless you count the "investment" you remove from your bank account to purchase the boat, but then its no longer an investment. it then becomes more like a gamble, with the odds stacked against you, and with very little hope of breaking even, even if you should win (and who is the deciding judge on that!).... and even though its only a boat, with all the money you just spent on it, it can become a lot of other things... (i mean, in addition to something that will absorb any extra cash or financial windfalls that you may come your way... and absorb it without a trace)
it can become a love affair, It can become an obsession, it can become a yard ornament, it can become a money pit, it can become a waste of time, it can become a neglected possession, it can become a seagull roost, or maybe even part of an offshore reef.... if your lucky, somewhere along the way, it will become therapeutic. although the therapy you get from could cause divorce or bankruptcy, if owning a boat makes you feel good, by all means, dont let anything stand in your way....

 

[jrowan]

I have to disagree that a sailboat is not a good investment. You just have to have a good eye to find a bargain boat that is a bit of a diamond in the rough. I will give you three examples of good investments from my own experience:
My first boat I bought on my own (not one of my dad's) was a Catalina 25 that I bought to cheer up my dad when he sold his big 35 footer due to cancer. It was a 1985 model that looked cosmetically bad, but was structurally sound, had a roller furling, intact sails & a working outboard & worn trailer. I spent about about $1,200 to purchase her from a boat museum donation. I spent about a grand to fix her leaking swing keel trunk, & spent about a month or two to clean her up, new cushions, bottom paint etc. I sold her for $7,500 a year later. That was a profit of about $5,000. Not bad - more then doubled my money.

2. My second investment boat was a 1980 28 foot S 2. These are well known for being very solid & well built sailboats. She looked neglected & had a coral reef growing on her bottom. But she had good North sails, roller furling, & a working Yanmar diesel & wheel steering. Got her seller down to $5,000 cash for her, a steal. Hauled her out & spent about a grand for a new epoxy barrier coat , bottom job & cleaned her up good. A good wax job can make a tired boat look new again. Enjoyed sailing her for a year, and put her on the market & sold her for $14,000, the full value of the boat in good shape. That was a profit of $8,000!
I felt pretty good after that sale, & immediately was on the hunt for next, bigger cruiser for myself & my growing family.

3. My current boat is a 1980 Catalina 30. Took the 8-9 k of profit from the S 2 sale & bought the C 30 after talking the buyer down form 12k. She also has the assets that I always look for in a older sailboat: structurally sound, solid decks. Useable sails, roller furling, wheel steering and a working diesel engine. Dirty boats with dated aesthetics are the ticket to dropping the price. But if you have to replace sails, rebuild engines or do major structural repair then it isn't worth it. By a boat that is in sailable condition but needs some TLC & talk them down on the price. Cash money talks. Start waving around several thousand dollars in $100 bills, & I guarantee that the price will come down to your budget. The C 30 I bought is worth nearly 20 k in her current excellent condition. I have about 11k in potential profit /equity in her. So with three boats I made a total profit / equity of around $24,000 bucks, part time & enjoyed the hell out of sailing & owning each boat (slip fees not included). Cheers.

 

[CaptGregg]

The return on my investment is the pride and joy I receive when out on the water. That's priceless.

 

[jrowan]

I agree Gregg. I would have restored these boats & it would have been worth it if I'd only made or lost a dollar. It would have meant a lot more to me if my dad had lived long enough to see the completed restorations & had gone for one last sail with me. He taught me everything I know about sailboats. But its a lifetime learning process.

The bottom line is its usually cheaper to buy something in slightly better or at least usable shape, then start with a basket case. When you get into deck replacement, sail replacement, major rigging or engine rebuild/ replace, the the bottom line is you will not make money. Even a free boat can cost you big time, if you get the wrong one. An invaluable guide after my dad teaching me to sound out a hull & deck for rot & voids with a rubber hammer is Don Caseys book "Buying an Aging Sailboat." Lots of expert advice & checklists on checking out all the major systems.
A surveyor's report is usually a worthless waste of money. But its always worth it to hire a diesel mechanic to give a diesel a compression test & thorough once over. Cheers.

 

[anchorclanker]

Okay, I guess it depends on what one considers the word "investment" to mean. The word generally refers to something that appreciates in value faster than inflation. $1 was worth much more 10 years ago than today, so if a you had bought something for $1 10 years ago, and today it was still worth $1, you lost. Even if it was worth $2 today you probably still lost.

If you put your own labor into a boat, and sell the boat for more than you paid, and dont consider your labor, you might have only worked for $1 an hour. Thats not much of an investment either. Neither is it an investment if it sells for more than your have into it, but doesnt keep up with inflation.

But if you spent time with your spouse, a friend, a parent, or son or daughter, and you enjoyed the days tinkering, or hell, if you just got something back into your soul that was missing, well, thats a different kind of investment and it cant be purchased for any amount of money. I would rather lose $5000 on something having some fun, that waste away in front of the TV doing absolutely nothing.

 

[CaptGregg]

It's amazing to me the costs associated to sailboats that differ only a few feet, my Catalina 22 is much cheaper to work on and sail than a 26 footer. When I saw my Catalina 22 moored in her slip for the first time, she was floating and I could see her boot stripe above the water, I knew right then and there I was going to buy her. After climbing on board and sounding out her deck and inspecting below decks, there was no haggle, that had all been done, it was just counting out 10 $100 bills and signing titles and loading her up. I've not regretted one minute.

 

[centerline]

Okay, I guess it depends on what one considers the word "investment" to mean. The word generally refers to something that appreciates in value faster than inflation. $1 was worth much more 10 years ago than today, so if a you had bought something for $1 10 years ago, and today it was still worth $1, you lost. Even if it was worth $2 today you probably still lost.

If you put your own labor into a boat, and sell the boat for more than you paid, and dont consider your labor, you might have only worked for $1 an hour. Thats not much of an investment either. Neither is it an investment if it sells for more than your have into it, but doesnt keep up with inflation.

But if you spent time with your spouse, a friend, a parent, or son or daughter, and you enjoyed the days tinkering, or hell, if you just got something back into your soul that was missing, well, thats a different kind of investment and it cant be purchased for any amount of money. I would rather lose $5000 on something having some fun, that waste away in front of the TV doing absolutely nothing.

this is about right.... anyone with an eye for it and the opportunity, can buy a boat and turn a dollar.... but if you "invest" your money in a boat cuz thats the boat you want for yourself, and you fall in love with it, then add to the creature comforts, a bit more deck hardware, and it does everything you want it to, it will do everything you bought it for except appreciate in value..... your gonna lose your investment while you make memories. and fond memories are worth it.... I stand firmly behind what I said earlier....

 

[Merlin Clark]

Investment and boat cannot be included in one sentence. I read one time where that dude had 35, or 45 thousand dollars tied up in that boat. That he's trying to sell for 15. Good luck on that one. That kind of money, I'd be on a 30' Alberg.
How in the hell a "sane" man can put that much money in a 22' is mind boggling to me.

Yeah that guy is over the top but his keeping a log of expenses is a good example of why I don't!

 

[philwsailz]

Yeah that guy is over the top but his keeping a log of expenses is a good example of why I don't!

Hah, you nailed that one for me personally.... I don't even want to guess what I have spent on my C 27, but I have probably invested close to the original purchase price over the last three dry years....

TV
Stereo
TV antenna and coax wiring
Supplies to rebuild the head including the electric flush unit
upholstery foam, fabric, thread and materials
Bottom paint, (yet to be applied)
Batteries, (probably get to replace three group 27 prior to even launching)
epoxy, filler, glass mat
Varnish
sails
standing rigging, spreaders and spreader brackets
non skid paint
transom paint
Stainless transom thru hulls
Fresh water tank, pump and plumbing
sinks, water faucets
Custom cut and bound carpets
polish, wax, and that new variable speed buffer

What have I misssed???

I don't want to know what I have "invested" in this project. It is my sanity to be able to go out and work on the boat. Some folks shoot guns, ride roller coasters, go to movies... I work on boats. It is my "me" time...

 

[py26129]

Yeah that guy is over the top but his keeping a log of expenses is a good example of why I don't!

Financially, if I can recoup my initial purchase price, when I sell the boat or do a little better, then then I consider myself to have broken even. The cost of running the boat, upgrades I make to bring it to the level I like, I consider the cost of doing business.

The smiles / mile are the important thing here and the stress reducing trasformation that happens when I step aboard are truly priceless.

From that perspective the boat is a great investement in my and my wife's mental health.

Matt

 

[Merlin Clark]

Phil and Matt,
I with you 100% on the psychological benefits of our hobby!
I had thought of naming an earlier boat "Qualude" but didn't want to have to explain it to the marine patrol every other day.

 

[Jackdaw]

I've followed Chip's efforts on and off for some time, most smiling and shaking my head. Its a true labor of love, but he started with the wrong boat. A 1974 Catalina 22 will max out at upper price, and never sell for higher, even if you dipped in gold. He's way past that investment wise.

He should have started with a newer boat, and perhaps one 2-3 feet longer.

 

[jrowan]

this is about right.... anyone with an eye for it and the opportunity, can buy a boat and turn a dollar.... but if you "invest" your money in a boat cuz thats the boat you want for yourself, and you fall in love with it, then add to the creature comforts, a bit more deck hardware, and it does everything you want it to, it will do everything you bought it for except appreciate in value..... your gonna lose your investment while you make memories. and fond memories are worth it.... I stand firmly behind what I said earlier....

I think I pretty much proved you wrong that a sailboat can indeed be a good investment, & that you can not only make money on a wise investment, but I actually doubled my initial investment on all 3 of my past boats. I think that's a pretty impressive track record. If you start with a bad boat to begin with that isn't very desirable, attractive, or sea worthy, then you'll never recoup your investment. Having "an eye for it" starts with a good, sound investment. A 1972 Catalina 22 is only worth about $3,500 to 5k tops.
If somebody dumps 40k into a lil boat like that, then they are just throwing their money away. When you consider what 40k can buy in a good, classic sailboat then it is even more of a waste, & is poor judgement. Plus you could easily buy a brand new C 22 for less then this, or a very nice 90s era C 30. I would be embarressed to admit that I had spent 40k on an old C 22. The only thing positive to walk away with is that when you document what you've already spent, at some point common sense would hopefully kick in & give you a wake up call. This should be an example to everyone of what not to do with your money. Its great to have a hobby, but this guy reminds me of the saying, "you can polish a turd, but it will still look like a turd." On the other hand, if you spend a few bucks more to buy something decent, then it will cost less to maintain & likely be a whole lot more enjoyable at the end of the day. My 2 cents.