How good an investment is restoring your boat?

py26129 · Jan 16, 2013

jrowan said:
I think I pretty much proved you wrong that a sailboat can indeed be a good investment, & that you can not only make money on a wise investment, but I actually doubled my initial investment on all 3 of my past boats. I think that's a pretty impressive track record. If you start with a bad boat to begin with that isn't very desirable, attractive, or sea worthy, then you'll never recoup your investment. Having "an eye for it" starts with a good, sound investment. A 1972 Catalina 22 is only worth about $3,500 to 5k tops.
If somebody dumps 40k into a lil boat like that, then they are just throwing their money away. When you consider what 40k can buy in a good, classic sailboat then it is even more of a waste, & is poor judgement. Plus you could easily buy a brand new C 22 for less then this, or a very nice 90s era C 30. I would be embarressed to admit that I had spent 40k on an old C 22. The only thing positive to walk away with is that when you document what you've already spent, at some point common sense would hopefully kick in & give you a wake up call. This should be an example to everyone of what not to do with your money. Its great to have a hobby, but this guy reminds me of the saying, "you can polish a turd, but it will still look like a turd." On the other hand, if you spend a few bucks more to buy something decent, then it will cost less to maintain & likely be a whole lot more enjoyable at the end of the day. My 2 cents.

No doubt your record is impressive. However I prefer to look at my boat not from a strict financial perspective. The upgrades I make are for my benefit and enjoyment and if they enhance the resale value of the boat, then that's a bonus. What keeps me in check is that I'm inherently cheap which does not stop me from admiring the Alberg 30 down the dock that has had a bazillion bucks spent on it.

My point is that it takes all kinds and all sorts of different points of view. It's a hobby after all and the point is to enjoy.

Matt

Chris Patterson · Jan 16, 2013

I actually agree with most that has been said here.

I kept track of receipts on one ground-up rebuild, and it was way too depressing to ever do again. I don't WANT to know.

And if I had spent that much money on a 5 thousand dollar boat, I probably wouldn't tell anybody, much less create a website attesting to my insanity. But like said, to each his own. I know I've spent way too much on boats myself, who hasn't. And while it's commendable to post all this for engineering's sake, to me it's more of a what NOT to do. Whatever..

And yes, it's the price of entertainment. Like going to Six-Flags, or Vegas. No one should expect much more than fun. To me, they're money pits, and that is just fine. I can afford it, so no harm, no foul. Sort of like a 5 grand boat with 40 poured into it, but at least it doesn't quantify extremism..

StanFM · Jan 16, 2013

Seems like Chip is a decent fellow who enjoyed his boat, and took pleasure in modifying it and maintaining it in ship-shape cherry condition. Perhaps if he had started out with a 36 footer he would have spent $150K over time... so think of the money he saved with the 22!

Stan

philwsailz · Jan 16, 2013

While I wouldn't do it, at least that is what I tell myself...... Would I really?

I will go to bat for Chip in part. I only skimmed his itemized bill list but:
*How much of that expenditure is sails? Scratch that out and call it fuel. Some boats coming out of South Africa on their own bottoms need new sails when they get here.
*How much of his expenditure is maintenance? Paint, keel parts, standing rigging, running rigging.....Scratch that out and call it a responsible owner.
*Did he itemize fuel?
*Electronics

We can beat Chip up but I know he has had that boat for a long time. If I had time, or really cared to I might break down his list and provide a common man's itemized list, categorized as upgrades or cost of ownership.

I've been the guy who sailed cheap because I did nothing for the boat. Now I am at the other end. Something tells me that over the course of 9 years I could spend similar money all-in on a boat I love......

That being said, I agree he is smoking something if he thinks he can sell for $15K. To get that you need to be 86 or newer, on a trailer and pristine...

Chris Patterson · Jan 16, 2013

Yeah, I digress. And apologize for being way too harsh.
I need to remember, few people roll the same way.
Nuff said..

philwsailz · Jan 16, 2013

philwsailz said:
While I wouldn't do it, at least that is what I tell myself...... Would I really?

I will go to bat for Chip in part. I only skimmed his itemized bill list but:
*How much of that expenditure is sails? Scratch that out and call it fuel. Some boats coming out of South Africa on their own bottoms need new sails when they get here.
*How much of his expenditure is maintenance? Paint, keel parts, standing rigging, running rigging.....Scratch that out and call it a responsible owner.
*Did he itemize fuel?
*Electronics

We can beat Chip up but I know he has had that boat for a long time. If I had time, or really cared to I might break down his list and provide a common man's itemized list, categorized as upgrades or cost of ownership.

I've been the guy who sailed cheap because I did nothing for the boat. Now I am at the other end. Something tells me that over the course of 9 years I could spend similar money all-in on a boat I love......

That being said, I agree he is smoking something if he thinks he can sell for $15K. To get that you need to be 86 or newer, on a trailer and pristine...

I probably only have $12K in mine... AND I have a trailer on the deal that while needing work will haul a 35. what is a triple axle trailer that size worth???

centerline · Jan 16, 2013

jrowan said:
I think I pretty much proved you wrong that a sailboat can indeed be a good investment, & that you can not only make money on a wise investment, but I actually doubled my initial investment on all 3 of my past boats.

well you are an exceptional wheeler and dealer when it comes to boats, and if your goal was to prove me wrong, then im glad you feel satisfied... I never said it was impossible to make money on a boat. I said a boat was not an investment... in general terms. there are always exceptions... and being a boat dealer is one of the exceptions.

there are more pleasure boat owners that love their boats who will agree their boat will more likely cost them a dollar than it will ever earn them a dollar.... more than will ever say they profited by selling the boat..... you insinuate that its because they arent smart enough to buy right to begin with.... I say its because they LOVE their boat.... they dont want to sell it, they wont sell it... even if they could make a little profit in someone else's moment of weakness to own a boat..... they love the boat they own, it fits their needs, and have put a lot of time, sweat, money, and love back into it.... but i dont suppose someone who buys and sells a boat because there is a dollar to be made on it will ever understand this...
and im not trying to prove you wrong, im only trying to help you see how truly exceptional you are that you have never lost a dime on a boat... or at least the last three you spoke of. there are too many of us that arent like you, and we usually lose money on our boats.... partly because some of us are buying high priced boats from people who havent put too much into them, have no love for their boat, and are just selling for a quick buck... like someone who wheels and deals in boats. just sayin'.....

StanFM · Jan 17, 2013

Shoot, it cost me 15k just to buy a used half ton so I could pull my old "project" boat! Now that's nuts! And if I buy a new outboard, my investment in the boat could double!!

At least I can say personally that so many of my hobbies over the years, have not involved the rest of the family. But sailing is something I can share with my wife and daughter. Wife likes to cruise, daughter loves to race with me. In that respect alone, I don't regret any of my nautical expenditures, however nuts they may be.

In a way, I see Chip's boat as being a public relations poster-boat that increases the value of everyone's C22.

Stan

Merlin Clark · Jan 17, 2013

StanFM said:
"At least I can say personally that so many of my hobbies over the years, have not involved the rest of the family. But sailing is something I can share with my wife and daughter. Wife likes to cruise, daughter loves to race with me. In that respect alone, I don't regret any of my nautical expenditures, however nuts they may be."

Stan

Yeah, this is the hidden "investment"!

Jackdaw · Jan 17, 2013

I hope this thread dos not turn into a Chip bashing, because he has done amazing work on HIS boat, with HIS money. We need to remember that.

Maybe because I've owned lots of boats, I've started to look at it very pragmatically. An easy way to do that is to remember that a boat will almost never sell for more than its original sale price. Do you wonder why most C22s from the 70s are in the $5K range?

I had a 1987 Beneteau First 235 that I did tons of work on. Better than new she was. Then I started to think about taking her to the next level, but stopped. I knew that a)she was not my last boat, and b) I would never see that money back. And she sold for 16K originally, so I was getting close to the diminishing returns price. So I sold her for 12500 to the happiest man in the world. And then I bought another boat!

jrowan · Jan 17, 2013

centerline said:
well you are an exceptional wheeler and dealer when it comes to boats, and if your goal was to prove me wrong, then im glad you feel satisfied... I never said it was impossible to make money on a boat. I said a boat was not an investment... in general terms. there are always exceptions... and being a boat dealer is one of the exceptions.

there are more pleasure boat owners that love their boats who will agree their boat will more likely cost them a dollar than it will ever earn them a dollar.... more than will ever say they profited by selling the boat..... you insinuate that its because they arent smart enough to buy right to begin with.... I say its because they LOVE their boat.... they dont want to sell it, they wont sell it... even if they could make a little profit in someone else's moment of weakness to own a boat..... they love the boat they own, it fits their needs, and have put a lot of time, sweat, money, and love back into it.... but i dont suppose someone who buys and sells a boat because there is a dollar to be made on it will ever understand this...
and im not trying to prove you wrong, im only trying to help you see how truly exceptional you are that you have never lost a dime on a boat... or at least the last three you spoke of. there are too many of us that arent like you, and we usually lose money on our boats.... partly because some of us are buying high priced boats from people who havent put too much into them, have no love for their boat, and are just selling for a quick buck... like someone who wheels and deals in boats. just sayin'.....

The whole point of what I wrote really isn't to prove you wrong, that's really not my intention. But it bothers me a bit when people always assume wrongly that a sailboat is inherintly a bad investment. Everything that we invest our time, effort & money is indeed an investment. People tend to measure investments in the amount of money that is spent, which of course there's a lot more to it. I mearly try to show by examples that a sailboat in particular can be a great investment. Not only monetarilly, but in the relaxation, excercise, hobby, learning & exploring tool & vehicle that it really is. Where else besides an RV can you travel & live aboard your vehicle, that with the right skill & experience costs nothing in fuel & does not pollute? I just wish sailors would not blame boats for being a bad investment, because in my experience they are not.
We had this discussion once before on the forum & there were many other sailors who documented their purchase of a reasonably good condition sailable boat, which when bought at a reasonable price, was fixed up, sailed, sold & made a decent profit.
But I don't quantify a successful investment on just making money. Of course as a sailor my real enjoyment is in sailing & the cruising lifestyle. I don't intend to belittle people who sink tons of money in required upkeep on their boats. So please don't knock me because I succeeded in making a profit. Besides, fate will probably get in my in the long run with a major engine failure that wil cost me a bomb & wipe out my profit margin. I have probably been just as lucky as I have been prudent on what boats I buy. The whole point s that boat ownership gets a bad reputation as a money pit & financial loser that is not really justified.
With a little research, via guides from pros like Don Casey & Practical Sailor, you can indeed conduct your own survey of a boat, pick a good used boat with a good reputation & make a good bargain on an undervalued boat. That is my whole point, that this is a recipe for a good boat investment.
Unfortunately a lot of guys buy the first "good deal" that they see, don't research the background & potential faults of that model to look out for, & get stuck with an overpriced lemon. Lastly, I do have a philosophy that once I have completed a refit on a boat, I sail it, enjoy it, & move on to my next bigger & better project, before she needs another refit! But I sail because I love sailing & I love sailboats, not because I want to make money from them. I merely get satisfaction from taking a lil gem, polishing them up & realizing their full potential.

paphman · Jan 17, 2013

We have a 1984 C-22 that I purchased eight seasons ago. My wife and I have put alot of money into it and I could not have spent the money in a better way. Think of all the people that spend 30 - 40 K on a car. Now that is a dumb investment. Now many will say but wait, I love driving that car and I have always wanted that car, so I bought it. Great, and I agree. Will you 'make' money on your investment? We all know the answer to that one. My wife and I fall into the group that will not sell our boat. I am retired and I hope one day the kids will want it when the old fellow can no longer get it out on the lake. I never thought of the boat as an investment, just a place where my wife and I have the most fun of anything we do. As they say, that is priceless. So don't spend more than you have, but don't fret over what you have spent. And if you are worried about your investment, just look in your garage at that woulderful four wheeled investment you made, and have a good chuckle. Looking forward to the upcoming season, and I am sure that you are too.

Dale

centerline · Jan 17, 2013

jrowan said:
The whole point of what I wrote really isn't to prove you wrong, that's really not my intention. But it bothers me a bit when people always assume wrongly that a sailboat is inherintly a bad investment. Everything that we invest our time, effort & money is indeed an investment. People tend to measure investments in the amount of money that is spent, which of course there's a lot more to it. I mearly try to show by examples that a sailboat in particular can be a great investment. Not only monetarilly, but in the relaxation, excercise, hobby, learning & exploring tool & vehicle that it really is. Where else besides an RV can you travel & live aboard your vehicle, that with the right skill & experience costs nothing in fuel & does not pollute? I just wish sailors would not blame boats for being a bad investment, because in my experience they are not.
We had this discussion once before on the forum & there were many other sailors who documented their purchase of a reasonably good condition sailable boat, which when bought at a reasonable price, was fixed up, sailed, sold & made a decent profit.
But I don't quantify a successful investment on just making money. Of course as a sailor my real enjoyment is in sailing & the cruising lifestyle. I don't intend to belittle people who sink tons of money in required upkeep on their boats. So please don't knock me because I succeeded in making a profit. Besides, fate will probably get in my in the long run with a major engine failure that wil cost me a bomb & wipe out my profit margin. I have probably been just as lucky as I have been prudent on what boats I buy. The whole point s that boat ownership gets a bad reputation as a money pit & financial loser that is not really justified.
With a little research, via guides from pros like Don Casey & Practical Sailor, you can indeed conduct your own survey of a boat, pick a good used boat with a good reputation & make a good bargain on an undervalued boat. That is my whole point, that this is a recipe for a good boat investment.
Unfortunately a lot of guys buy the first "good deal" that they see, don't research the background & potential faults of that model to look out for, & get stuck with an overpriced lemon. Lastly, I do have a philosophy that once I have completed a refit on a boat, I sail it, enjoy it, & move on to my next bigger & better project, before she needs another refit! But I sail because I love sailing & I love sailboats, not because I want to make money from them. I merely get satisfaction from taking a lil gem, polishing them up & realizing their full potential.

this sounds way better to me but I will still say that boats are not a good financial investment as a general rule....
and I will never look down on someone for putting time or money into their boat, no matter how little value it may add... because they enjoy it. its they want to do... maybe it will make their use of it more enjoyable... (and personally, i think a boat should be taken care of) but i will still maintain a pleasure boat is more of a hobby than it will ever be a sound financial investment.
and respectfully, i will add, for every good purchase you made on a boat, I will bet a dollar to a dime that the seller lost money on it.... and i'll bet the same that every boat you sold at a decent profit, the buyers are going lose money on their "investment" when they sell it..... thats twice the amount of losers than winners, but the actual offset is many times higher than that and its not always something a boat buyer/owner/seller has any control over.
if you purchase a boat to enjoy it, your chances of success are many times greater (but still no guarantees) than it is if you bought the boat as a financial investment.... thats just the way it will always be.

watercolors II · Jan 18, 2013

Un-used is the real loss of investment

http://live.wsj.com/video/wealth--w...4B.html#!34835CC1-DA6D-4B1F-A94F-EDBF033CA64B

I watched this interview in the middle of the summer but, now doesn’t want to load on my computer. The owner of the Swan says that it is a good investment for him. He says that he never schedules any meetings for Monday morning because it takes him a half day back at his business before he can make a sound business decision after having a relaxing sailing weekend.

I personally can relate to that, I’ve had 2 heart attacks and my local small hospital here in central Pennsylvania offers their cardiac rehab equipment for use to former patients two days a week when they are not in use by new patients. Medical staff take my blood pressure before and after each day’s workout. My blood pressure is always much lower on Tuesday after spending a big weekend sailing and it really drops when I come back from sailing a full week on the Chesapeake Bay.

So, what is the cost for better health?

Now, dollar value; yacht brokers will tell you that to really enjoy your boat that the yearly cost of use and maintenance can be as high as the original purchase price, especially for powerboats where fuel would be a major cost. In 1992, I didn’t buy a real old boat or a fix-a-upper, the 1987 was in perfect condition and came with all the sail controls and mfg. amenities one would want back then, a very good outboard and an after market heavy duty trailer. No way have I put the money into my boat that chipford.com has but, time I have, I wax her twice a year (my tow vehicle hasn’t been waxed in 8 years) and over the last two years 16 coats of varnish has been applied to the outside teak trim with 3 more planned for this spring. She has been sailed really hard and put away wet many times but, is still the best looking boat at the marina.

It will only be a couple more years until I’ll be physically unable to sail and maintain her, at that time I will consider the initial purchase price as zero because I will not need the money for a newer larger boat or need the money for anything else in the future.

If I do the numbers, right now, $9000.00 divided by 20 years comes to $450.00 per year. If I use Catalina's used boat calculator, the boat is worth $7500.00 so that brings the yearly loss of investment down to $75.00 a year. I believe my high speed internet service to talk to you fellows is $60.00 a month.

CaptGregg · Jan 18, 2013

While ludes are one of the few drugs I've not done in my life, I love the name! I think shore patrol will get a laugh out of it, they should if anybody does, get the soothing effects just stepping aboard a pleasure craft can be. I often think that's why everyone on the water is constantly smiling and waving at me, not my magnetic personality nor ludes but the fact that they've left their anxieties on land before boarding! LOL

You can't put a price on the tranquility but you can on amenities. I've found out and that's P. T.Barnum was right, there's a sucker born every minute and I wouldn't take a bet against Chip getting his price if he's a good salesman and can talk a good game. I've seen some pretty smart people blow a lot of money that I thought was a pretty stupid purchase. But that was my opinion, not theirs.

CaptGregg · Jan 19, 2013

When I was docked in Manteo while waiting for the small craft advisory to be lowered, I did many things on the boat, I took that opportunity to change out my grounding bus for my DC panel since I didn't replace it when I replaced the panel (didn't have one then) and one of those activities were watching the tourists walking around as me, a tourist sat comfortable in my cockpit on cushions, an older guy walked past my boat and stopped to wish me a good day. We got into a conversation and you could tell by his clothes fashion that he was of better means than I, he admitted that he loved the smaller boats because (for the very reason I bought this one to be my ONLY boat) he could use it more. He only gets to go out on his yacht once or twice a year. He said he watched me drop sail and coast into the slip and was able to fend off the boat from hitting the dock, a feat he wouldn't DARE attempt in his vessel and it brought back fond memories of earlier times. I invited him aboard but he said he couldn't stay but a minute but we wound up talking over a half of an hour after that. Later on that evening, I was walking the dock mainly out of curiosity for I wanted to see this man's boat and when I found it (where he said it was and he was sitting in a nice comfortable deck chair when I arrived), I would classify that vessel as a SHIP! He had to be at the end of the dock because that thing wouldn't fit IN a slip! I think he could afford Chip's price! :dance:

jfrench said:
Well, keep in mind that price is relative. For someone who has a big income and little time, buying a boat for $15,000 with $30,000 in parts and twice that in labor already put in it might make perfect sense. $15,000 is a monthly credit card bill to many, and a tank of gas for some yacht owners!

CaptGregg · Jan 19, 2013

The reason I'll never forget that guy is he was the carbon copy right down to the smile of Beattie Purcell.

Merlin Clark · Jan 19, 2013

Hopefully someone like that sees Chips boat and recognizes the value!