OK To Winterize Engine With Propylene Glycol?

[Maine Sail]

EG can explode. PG has no such warning label. Something to ponder.

I've never heard of an ethylene glycol automotive or fleet antifreeze explosion? Can you point us to one?

Here is an "RV Antifreeze" that most people would assume is propylene glycol. The first ingredient in this stuff is not propylene glycol but rather ethyl alcohol.. Note the "WARNING: COMBUSTIBLE" statement...... A good quality RV Antifreeze that is PG only will not have this warning...

 

[Witzend]

why do you dump it into the water--isnt there a way to catch the fluid when you wish to rid boat of it without having it run out the bilge and into water??

The discussion is concerning antifreeze that has been sucked into the engine which does not go into the bilge when displaced, it goes out the exhaust. I suppose you could attach a tube to the exhaust outlet and re-capture before it enters the environment, but I doubt anyone does this when they commission in spring time. Pipe in here if I'm wrong.
I guess my confusion here is the worry about the use of Ethel Alcohol, I see no reason this is an issue. What components would be affected? Most raw water impellers are neoprene, certainly all the inlet and exhaust piping should be? Again, neoprene is not affected by Ethel Alcohol.
For the entire boating season one has no problem with having raw sea water in the system, so what's the fuss here. Maybe the though is, you are reversing the corrosive effects from the exposure to chlorine ions...I doubt it. The level of corrosion is so far greater during the sailing season than the difference between the use of PG with EA than without EA, in my opin, it simply not significant.

 

[catsailor]

... What components would be affected? Most raw water impellers are neoprene, certainly all the inlet and exhaust piping should be? Again, neoprene is not affected by Ethel Alcohol....

Also nitrile. But they are effected by PG. But not by EG or ethyl alcohol.

http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com/_downloads/ChemGuide_8677-P.pdf

Interesting.

 

[Ducati]

8 Different Answers

Did you not believe us the first time we tried to help?

Yup, last time I asked I got 8 answers...all different...

Thanks

 

[Maine Sail]

I guess my confusion here is the worry about the use of Ethel Alcohol, I see no reason this is an issue. What components would be affected?

Many boats have PVC in the intake system & RW circuit. Seafrost or other engine driven heat exchangers, the body's on some strainers are PVC, flow alarms etc. can all be affected by ethyl alcohol for long term exposure.

If using the same product to winterize a fresh water system that has PVC components, as many do, EA is not the best product to be putting in there. I was told by Trident Marine to not use products containing EA in their PVC hose.. Some intake hoses to the pump are PVC though I generally recommend getting PVC hoses out of the engine space anyway..

 

[Scott B]

Did you not believe us the first time we tried to help?

Yup, last time I asked I got 8 answers...all different...

Thanks

We did ask for clarifiction as your original question was not clear. Not trying to be smart, but you asked the question and disappeared.

 

[Witzend]

It's not the PCV that is the issue with EA, it is the phthalates that are used as plasticizers to make PVC soft. Phthalate does not bond very well and as a result can get displaced.

 

[catsailor]

It's not the PCV that is the issue with EA, it is the phthalates that are used as plasticizers to make PVC soft. Phthalate does not bond very well and as a result can get displaced.

Exactly. In the engine room this will make hoses prone to cracking. In sanitation hoses it increases permeability, increasing the chance of stink.

Ethanol may seem a smart short term savings, but it's really a sneaky long term cost.

 

[Witzend]

There should be no PVC with plasticizers in the raw water cooling systems, certainly not mine. If there is, this is what should be addressed not what type of antifreeze is being used.

 

[Sail123]

Ethanol (drinking alchohol) can explode. EG and PG are both non-combustible when mixed with water and have flash points above boiling. Both EG and PG are double alchohols (glycols) and will burn if free of water, with ignition requirments about like lubricating oils, though somewhat less heat is released in combustion.

Check facts, please.

Some EG list explosion warnings on the label, I am told. I don't mind learning. Do you?

 

[thinwater]

Some EG list explosion warnings on the label, I am told. I don't mind learning. Do you?

"I have heard." If you have seen one, please share the complete information. Some cities (New York) use different nomenclature in their fire wanrings that can be confusing to the general public. Either that or the jug contained ethanol.

Please review the MSDSs information below for PG and EG. I am on the ASTM commitee (15.05) that sets standards and nomenclature for both EG and PG, so these things have become obvious to me. I am very much interested in learning; however, I am of the habit of checking facts and posting them as such. Only by posting facts can we all learn rather than spread misinformation. In point of fact, PG is slightly more combustible than EG, though these figures are for neat material; niether will flash if mixed with water. The differences are not considered relavant for winterization usage.

From "Sciencelab.com"​

EG​

Flammability of the Product:

May be combustible at high temperature.

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Auto-Ignition Temperature: ​

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398°C (748.4°F)

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Flash Points: ​

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CLOSED CUP: 111°C (231.8°F). (Tagliabue.)

PG
Flammability of the Product: ​

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May be combustible at high temperature.

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Auto-Ignition Temperature: ​

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371°C (699.8°F)

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Flash Points: ​

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CLOSED CUP: 99°C (210.2°F). OPEN CUP: 107°C (224.6°F) (Cleveland).
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For comparison, ethanol is flamable, which means it can explode lower temperatures. Very different.
Ethanol

Flammability of the Product: ​

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Flammable.

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Auto-Ignition Temperature: ​

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363°C (685.4°F)
Flash Points: CLOSED CUP: 12.78°C (55°F). OPEN CUP: 17.78°C (64°F) (Cleveland).

​

 

[Maine Sail]

There should be no PVC with plasticizers in the raw water cooling systems, certainly not mine.

Personally I don't know nor have the time to check on every boat that uses PVC in the intake RW system as to whether it is plasticized or un-plasticized. For the $0.50 more per gallon I am much safer to buy straight PG/water products as opposed to PG/EA. Sometimes I have AF left over from the engine that I can use in the domestic water or sanitation system, which is usually loaded with plasticized PVC.

This is a 2012 $400,000 vessel:

If there is, this is what should be addressed not what type of antifreeze is being used.

I would much rather see a rubber hose here but the reality is that many builders use hoses that are not rubber in the RW intake system..

 

[Witzend]

Maine, as someone like yourself who does this for a living I can understand why you do what you do, no issues with that, and I'm sure you let the owner know when there are incorrect materials used, but for the owner maintainer, it is good to know first, what the chemistry is and second, how it affects the materials used in your boat. Hopefully this discussion will prompt owners to look and see what type of intake hoses and beings used and change them out using the correct materials if they are not up to snuff.

 

[catsailor]

I find that sort of clear hose rather disturbing in such an application; limited chemical resistance, limited cut resistance, limited heat resistance (it may be on the cold side, but is near the engine), known tendency to harden over time or in the cold, used in a place that can flood the boat. That's just cheap. CG rules cover fuels and exhaust, but I guess not this?

 

[Witzend]

I find that sort of clear hose rather disturbing in such an application; limited chemical resistance, limited cut resistance, limited heat resistance (it may be on the cold side, but is near the engine), known tendency to harden over time or in the cold, used in a place that can flood the boat. That's just cheap. CG rules cover fuels and exhaust, but I guess not this?

Certainly in light of all the matriculates work that has been done on the engine's appearance.

 

[Chris Patterson]

I guess it's been put there by the manufacturer? They DID at least double clamp the intake side, with Awab clamps, and again, got cheap on the single clamp on the water exhaust.
People "cry the blues" about China junk, (and I do too), but this is another example of why everybody bought Japanese in the 70's and 80's. I know that it is a very competitive business in boats, and most other things, but we can't keep building junk.

And this could be yet another case of planned obsolescence by the manufacturer...

 

[Maine Sail]

Certainly in light of all the matriculates work that has been done on the engine's appearance.

That was a brand new boat hence the clean engine. I took the photo on VIP day at the Annapolis Sailboat Show this past October.... Sadly this builder is not the only one doing this.. I agree it sucks but it is what it is and the largely uneducated boat buying public don't complain enough to get building practices like this to stop...

If I had my way PVC hose of ANY TYPE would be banned for below water and any engine room use..... Hell if I had my way it would be banned for sanitation & domestic plumbing use too....

 

[Witzend]

That's pathetic!
Another problem is the these phthalates are leaching out from food processing equipment and contaminating out food supply.
Phthalates are implicated in developmental problems in males and cause early
development of the breasts in females by mimicking estrogen.
So it is a wide spread problem.