Warning on winterizing

[higgs]

Beware of a good deal on the pink winterizing fluid many of us use. This year, some companies are putting an anti freeze out that contains ethel alcohol which is hard on rubber. Not what we want. It is cheaper, but not worth it. I almost fell for a sale on the stuff, but good store personel set me straight.

 

[Ray Bowles]

I noticed yesterday while shopping at Wally World that there was a warning on the cheaper rec vechicle antifreeze that said "Combustable". The better grades lacked this warning.
Is this because it contains ethel alcohol? I have never seen this warning before on any antifreeze product.
Ray

 

[Rich Stidger]

OK, I'll bite

Thanks, higgs- just when I thought I was done for the day and could relax, I read your post. I just bought 6 gallons at WalMart today so out I go to the garage to see what I got.

Sure enough, the label on the Super-Tech WalMart brand says it is combustible and has ethyl alcohol as well as propylene glycol. So I looked at some left-over stuff from last year that I bought at Tractor Supply Co and it is also combustible and contains ethyl alcohol as well as either glycerin or propylene glycol. Both products have a -50 F rating. Both are "pink stuff".

So I have been using this stuff for at least one year and possibly many years. Thus far my boat has not combusted nor have I noticed any evidence of any rubber seals vaporizing. I only use it in my toilets and maserator. I don't use it in my water system, A/C systems, or engine raw water loops.

Educate me please. What is the concern? See pix below for the labels. The blue label is the WalMart Super Tech that I just bought.

 

[Lost Parent]

Re: OK, I'll bite

RV Antifreeze - Not all Antifreezes are Created Equal
RV/Marine non-toxic antifreeze is probably the most misunderstood commodity in our industry today. There are currently three different varieties on the market at three very different prices.

Ethanol (alcohol) based: This type of antifreeze is most readily available in hardware stores and most RV shops it sells for approximately $3.00 - $4.00 a jug. However, this product is also extremely flammable and not to used around any sort of pilot flames or cigarettes. As well, this product has been known to taint certain RV plumbing systems and is only to be used with Quest or Pex plumbing lines. If you have ever used this product you will quickly remember how bad you water smelt and tasted the next spring. Furthermore, because this product is made from alcohol it works to dry out all the rubber seals readily found in your faucets and toilet. As a result we do not recommend or sell this product.


Propylene Glycol based: This product is only available at your local RV shop (and not every RV shop for that matter). It sells for approximately $5.00 - $6.00 a jug. Like the ethanol antifreeze, this product is non-toxic and safe for all RV plumbing. However, propylene glycol does not have the same fire safety warnings, nor the risk of tainting your RV plumbing system. Furthermore, propylene glycol is a lubricant and will actually work to extend the life of the seals in your faucets and toilets, unlike the ethanol based products. This is the only product we use on our own RVs and the only product we sell in our parts store. We have just received our first shipment of Propylene Glycol based anti freeze. We have it on sale at the following prices
Case Of 6 Gallons $23.94 (3.99 Gal)
$4.49 per gallon (each)


Propylene/Ethanol Blend: Again this product is non-toxic and completely safe for RV plumbing systems. It will cost more than $4.00 - $5.00 a jug. This may seem like a good idea, however, it is unknown how much ethanol is required to taint RV plumbing lines and dry out plumbing seals. For that reason we do not recommend this product.

​

 

[Rich Stidger]

OK, I just did a Google search and turned up the following info. I don't know if this is the definitive scoop or not, but take a look-

It is located at http://www.mainecamperdealer.com/index.php/pages/rv-antifreeze.html

The text is as in the post above.

Hmmm. So do I return what I bought or use it since I haven't detected a problem in the past?

 

[Lost Parent]

Use it , I am in th eRV business and also own an RV and have been using the ethanol based fluid for the last 6 years and have had no adverse effects in boat or rv and I also winterize on the average at least 200 rv each year for repeat customers and have not noticed any problems , just flush well in the spring

 

[Andy1237]

What category does vodka fall into? Ha ha, Haven't you heard about people using cheap vodka in lieu of antifreeze. I guess it is flammable too but I don't know what it does to rubber hoses.

 

[higgs]

I use 6 gallons to winterize which means the non ethyl stuff costs an extra $6.

 

[Maine Sail]

Guys,

The West Marine Pure Oceans Antifreeze is PG product
The Prestone RV Antifreeze at Wal*Mart is a PG product (SuperTech is NOT pure PG)
The Dow RV antifreeze is a PG product
Pah-Nol is also a PG product

If you are paying less than about $4.99 gallon it is cause for suspicion. In a PEX based water system the cheap stuff should be fine but if your system has PVC hoses you may want to opt for the PG/Water blend..

 

[catsailor]

Guys,

The West Marine Pure Oceans Antifreeze is PG product
The Prestone RV Antifreeze at Wal*Mart is a PG product (SuperTech is NOT pure PG)
The Dow RV antifreeze is a PG product
Pah-Nol is also a PG product

If you are paying less than about $4.99 gallon it is cause for suspicion. In a PEX based water system the cheap stuff should be fine but if your system has PVC hoses you may want to opt for the PG/Water blend..

Ethanol also is known to increase the permeability of PVC sanitation hose. It won't fail catastrophically, but it may begin to stink in a few years instead of 10 years.

From Cruising Mag:
"Here are some more points to consider: Many P.V.C.-based sanitation hoses prohibit the use of alcohol, which is often used for winterizing purposes. Once exposed to alcohol, P.V.C. hose may become gummy and prone to permeation...."

From Trident:
"Not for potable water applications, or for exposure to alcohol, petrochemicals or solvents...."


So I think there are some very real problems with ethanol in marine applications. Too easy to make a mistake.

 

[higgs]

For the buck more each gallon costs, I go with the good stuff.

 

[arf145]

Did not know this! Thanks for the info.

 

[ifmdalvey]

Lost Parent, thanks for the explanation, i had just bought 6 gallons the day before you posted, so rushed out and checked, luckily, what Lowes is selling is the correct type and for about $4.50.
Having just bought the boat this spring, this may explain why my water is so bad, it has an antiseptic taste and i have refilled the tank 3 times but the taste is still present.

 

[thinwater]

Lost Parent, thanks for the explanation, i had just bought 6 gallons the day before you posted, so rushed out and checked, luckily, what Lowes is selling is the correct type and for about $4.50.
Having just bought the boat this spring, this may explain why my water is so bad, it has an antiseptic taste and i have refilled the tank 3 times but the taste is still present.

There should be no antifreeze in the tank! Empty and vac out or scoop out the water that remains.

The antifreeze is ONLY in the lines. If there is a hot water heater, drain and then by-pass. If it is an "instant heater," AF as water hines. Additionally, blow much of the AF in the lines using the water pump or even air.

How do you add the AF? There should be a T and valves for this purpose just before the pressure pump, to suck the AF in. OEMs don't add these; you should.

Done correctly, you should only need to run a few gallons through each tap to flush in the spring.

 

[Chris Patterson]

Something that I have been doing for many years, is there is a small adapter made, that screws into the fresh water intake side, (male hose bib), that is adapted to a common schrader valve. Open all the faucets inside, and gently purge it with air.
Now before anybody gets excited, here is the usual disclaimer:
DO NOT put 120 lbs. of air pressure into your plumbing lines, unless you just have a desire to see what it looks like to launch a water fixture through the cabin roof. One of those punky little 12 volt models like you get at Auto Shack, (or whatever those chinese auto part stores are called), and put 5 or 10 pounds of pressure on it slowly. I have never busted a line, or had one freeze.
I also don't live in the extremes of the North either. I'm sure there is some residual water left in the system, but with 98% of it blown out, it has room to expand if it freezes.

And I've never had a funky aftertaste from old air in the lines come springtime..

 

[higgs]

RV anti freeze should make your water taste bad. When filling your tanks in the spring, add bleach to shock the water. how much - I can't remember, but it is on line and works. Peg Hall has a rememdy that also works.

Anti freeze into a hot water heater will give you foamy water so the best bet there is to drain the hot water tank and bypass the tank when winterizing.

 

[Sail123]

Three boats and an R V is pretty much going to fill a day winterizing everything.

 

[silverbeard]

RV Antifreeze - Not all Antifreezes are Created Equal
RV/Marine non-toxic antifreeze is probably the most misunderstood commodity in our industry today. There are currently three different varieties on the market at three very different prices.

Propylene Glycol based: This product is only available at your local RV shop (and not every RV shop for that matter). It sells for approximately $5.00 - $6.00 a jug. Like the ethanol antifreeze, this product is non-toxic and safe for all RV plumbing. However, propylene glycol does not have the same fire safety warnings, nor the risk of tainting your RV plumbing system. Furthermore, propylene glycol is a lubricant and will actually work to extend the life of the seals in your faucets and toilets, unlike the ethanol based products. This is the only product we use on our own RVs and the only product we sell in our parts store. We have just received our first shipment of Propylene Glycol based anti freeze. We have it on sale at the following prices
Case Of 6 Gallons $23.94 (3.99 Gal)
$4.49 per gallon (each)

Here in Western Wisconsin, some stores sell Isobar RV/Marine antifreeze, which is Propylene Glycol based, for about $3.00 per gallon, when it on sale.

 

[Richard Bryer]

I noticed to day when I was looking at antifreeze in Canadian Tire they had both the combustible (ethanol) and one which it said "contained PG" The cheaper Ethanol product warned against use in metal pipes, the PG based product said "safe for both metal and plastic pipes".