Right of way?

[Gail R]

It's funny, our local boating mag had a letter to the editor last month, and replies this month, about a port-starboard crossing situation involving a couple of boats. The skipper of the starboard stand-on vessel wrote the letter about a crossing with a schooner on port. The starboard skipper watched for the schooner (which was racing) to change course and seeing no course change, did some maneuvering of his own, then got an earful from the other boat's crew. He was asking readers whether he acted prudently.

Long story short, what it seemed to come down to was a matter of timing and one's own idea of how much personal space is necessary. Apparently the port boat in this sitch was planning to give way, but simply didn't make that move soon enough for the stand-on skipper's comfort. Fortunately, the boats crossed without incident, but it was an uncomfortable few seconds.

Some people are okay passing within a couple boat lengths or even less than that, but for others, anything short of a football field is too close.

 

[Gail R]

I got idiots that think its OK to pull that crap when i am 14' from grabing my mooring ball

OR WHEN i go out of my way to someplace with nobody to furl the sails

Are you talking about power boaters or sailors? 'Cuz if you expect a power boater to show consideration while you're grabbing your mooring or furling your sails, your expectations are much higher than mine!

 

[-wb-]

Arguing with any boater that makes no effort toward common courtesy is like argueing on the internet. If some one is competent and confident to sail out the channel he has enough skill to be courteous and not tack right in front of a bigger boat. I may be giving credit where none is due. That being said, being aware of your own minimum control speed and using it to avoid close calls may be the best you can do. Bottom line in my opinion is if you followed the rules until you had to avoid a collision you did the right thing. This is not to say that I have not argued with inconsiderate boaters or in fact been one on occasion. I am trying to be better.

 

[dparilla]

The yacht club we belong to has about 350 keelboats but also a large contingent of drysailers - Lasers, Hobies, etc as well as some racing purebreads like Solings, Melges, and even a couple 8-meter boats. And, a strong junior sail program with Optimists, Albacores, etc. So we have lots of sailboats tacking in and out of the club.

It's been my unfortunate experience to observe that unless conditioned to look out for small sailboats, many keelboaters simply blast in and out of their clubs/marinas by the shortest path possible. Our 19' boat still gets squeezed or run down by larger boats under motor who think we should tremble and yield before their magnificent waterlines :cussing:

So, my question to Dan is: how slow were you going when you encountered the Flying Scot? My fear is that you might have been going at an OK speed for the marina if your path had been clear, but maybe a bit fast given the presence of the tacking sailboat, which made maneuvering and prediction that much harder for both of you?

Good points all. Thanks. I first do apologize for my "ass hatting" I was just a bit steamed at the moment and thought it better to vent here than at the other boater. Our channel (Washington Sailing Marina) is only about 60 feet wide (and a large shoal is threatening to reduce that width) at the point he cut across my bow, so when he was crossing me from the port side, I turned to port to pass astern of him. He then tacked at the midpoint so that I had to alter to starboard to pass astern. If he would have tacked short, stood on or even laid my stern he would have been clear, but the point he decided to tack put us back on a collision course and I did not have enough room to starboard to not end up on the shoal. I was able to back down, and once he cleared my bow I was able to proceed up the channel. My speed in this channel is never more than 2 knots due to the volume of sailboat traffic coming off the docks and ramps along it. During summer sailing school the channel is downright comical, and I am more than accustomed to giving way while entering the marina and had no issue with tucking around this guy, until he decided to change course in the midst of the channel. I expect it and was ready for it, but it still rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Maine Sail]

Good points all. Thanks. I first do apologize for my "ass hatting" I was just a bit steamed at the moment and thought it better to vent here than at the other boater. Our channel (Washington Sailing Marina) is only about 60 feet wide (and a large shoal is threatening to reduce that width) at the point he cut across my bow, so when he was crossing me from the port side, I turned to port to pass astern of him. He then tacked at the midpoint so that I had to alter to starboard to pass astern. If he would have tacked short, stood on or even laid my stern he would have been clear, but the point he decided to tack put us back on a collision course and I did not have enough room to starboard to not end up on the shoal. I was able to back down, and once he cleared my bow I was able to proceed up the channel. My speed in this channel is never more than 2 knots due to the volume of sailboat traffic coming off the docks and ramps along it. During summer sailing school the channel is downright comical, and I am more than accustomed to giving way while entering the marina and had no issue with tucking around this guy, until he decided to change course in the midst of the channel. I expect it and was ready for it, but it still rubbed me the wrong way.

Dan,

Were you overtaking him or was he coming at you? If overtaking in a narrow channel you had the need to communicate with the other boat you intend to overtake via sound signals or VHF. It still does not give him the right to tack in a narrow channel and burden other vessels but if overtaking in a narrow channel I think you had a duty to communicate your intentions.

 

[Gudenuph]

Bumper to bumper freeway traffic is another excellent way to practice your ANGER MANAGEMENT

 

[Ross]

It is a rare day that only one person is at fault in an accident.

 

[Sunbird22358]

Well, first....this is one reason that I have an outboard on my 17' Day Sailer. Just because I might be Stand-On" while tacking into or out of a harbor, does NOT mean that it is right for me to tack in/out if there is traffic. In hte above situation, my technique if I were the small centerboarder (which I usually will be!) or even in a small keelboat if I have enough water outside the channel..... would be to stay on course away from the channel long enough to allow the larger boat to pass (whether they are power or a sailboat under power) If I did not have enough water (or sailing room) to continue on my course away from the channel, I would do my best to luff up a bit to allow the other vessel to pass. Can't always do that.....but I will usually try my hardest!
If I were the vessel under power, my usually technique (and it would be best if I could somehow let the sailing vessel know my intentions!) would be to slow down as they sailed across the channel, then as soon as I was clear (as they sailed out of the channel) I would "firewall" the throttle (I"m assuming that I'm at the helm of a powering sailboat here!) to clear the other boat before he tacks back. Then slow back down when fully clear as they tack back.
Obviously, that technique is FAR from perfect.... but has worked on many occaisions in areas where the sailing vessel has room to sail at least a few boat lengths past the channel edge. Unfortunately......this also requires a bit of understanding and help from the sailer! Something that obviously was not happening in the stated story.

The whole situation changes when one is sailing in more open water, when the channel is the deepest water, but there is still more than enough water for the sailboat under power to alter course to avoid the small sailing vessel or when the channel is wide enough to allow altering course. Now, the sailing vessel is stand-on to the powering sailboat.....despite the claims that he needs the channel to avoid running aground (how a boat drawing 5' can worry about going aground when there is 10' + depth on both sides of a wide channel is hard to picture....but that was the answer I got after almost getting run over while crossing ahead of a 32' sailboat with my old 12' O'DAY Widgeon once! I was under sail, he was powering with loads of manuevering room.)

Anyway, when sailing near a channel, I often tack away long before reaching the channel if I can to avoid any boat in the channel...... If I don't have room to continue sailing away from the channel, I'll do my best to still avoid the other boat..........Nice thing about a CB boat.....you can risk a soft grounding.....but it is still best not to hit bottom (unless it is either hit bottom or hit another boat......but I haven't had to go aground yet to miss another boat). Best advice? PLAN AHEAD! The easiest meeting situations to handle are the ones that we avoid making close calls. No matter what we do though........you are still going to encounter a few "blowboaters" (sailing version of a "stinkpotter") who will insist on their "Right of Way" no matter what! Remember, "Right of Way" is not something that you have, it is something that the other party GIVES you, when the rules specify so. ANY small boat that hinders the passage of a larger vessel that MUST stay in the channel, is BREAKING the rules, be they a sailboat, rowboat, canoe, kayak, powerboat, etc. To again emphasize the being prepared theme, one time I had to "panic tack" to avoid a powerboat that just wouldn't give way......unfortunately, as I tacked.....I almost collided with a second powerboat crossing astern of me!

One final story..... I am a life-long sailer who also happens to have a small 14' powerboat with a 9.9 hp OB. I was once putting along slow in a river near home when a small (14') HOBIE Cat overtook me and they weren't exactly sailing fast! Well, OK...they sailed by about 10' of less away from my starboard side..a group of young people out having a relaxing time......but perhaps TOO relaxing (for them!) since they were actually on a course diagonally across the river and proceeded to sail right across my bow.......about 3' or LESS off my bow!! Luckily, I was able to slam into reverse to avoid them..........somehow despite the loud roar as my outboard kicked up out of the water in reverse.....they never even looked back at me!! I'm not sure they even saw me!! How they could even think of doing what thy did is beyond me, I wouldn't have hit them hard.....but still, I would have hit them it I didn't slam into reverse! As the overtaking vessel, they were "Give-Way" until well clear of me.......but, that didn't stop them from cutting me off as they overtook me. Oh, well, no harm, no damage (except to my nerves!).

 

[Scott T-Bird]

dparilla, nobody is exempt ...

from feeling indignant at times! Lord knows, it isn't unusual to feel wronged from time to time. For all I know, that guy who was cussing me out while I was drifting by at 3 knots may have just been waked by a 30' Donzi who closed in on him at 60 mph while his kids where splashing in the water (but they were drifting in the middle of a busy lake). I may have just happened to be close enough and slow enough (and quiet enough) for him to take out his anger while he was still steaming from another incident!

These discussions always bring out some interesting side-bars. Gail made a great point about the varying comfort level between sailors when they are closing on boats. I've talked with a number of guys who race the one-designs on our lake and they always say to just stand-on when you are on stbd tack because they are well-aware of the rules and where you are. They may be aimed right at your beam as they are getting uncomfortably close, but the last thing they want you to do is start to duck them too early when they fully intend to either duck you or tack the other way. They want you to be predictable and they are counting on you to stand on if on stbd. Every one of the guys I've spoken to have been relaxed about it and haven't given me any reason to believe that they want to rule the road just because they are in a race course. Maybe that's because on our small body of congested water, they just have a need to get along without making enemies.

 

[Ross]

For several years I sailed a canoe and I learned how to share the channel with the big powerboats . The speed limit was six and that helped . I would plan my tacks to pass under the stern of each big boat as they came along. I was very shallow draft and could almost sail up onto the beach. The power boaters maintained good intervals and no one was inconvenienced.

 

[Cool Beans]

Just curious how small or crowded yall's sailing area is?

I still haven't wrapped my head around some of the colregs as far as who is what. . .so far I've done a good job of just avoiding people. . .I'd rather pretend everyone has no idea who is doing what and be over cautious than assume something

 

[tommays]

Its packed BUT Google earth is only showing winter stuff right now

 

[Ross]

There may be 600 boats on the lower Susquehanna River and on any weekend one or two hundred of them may be in use. . We have a reasonably wide channel for about six miles out to the bay and two boats in a minute would be busy traffic. That only lasts for a few boats and then everything calms down.

 

[dparilla]

Washington Sailing Marina Approach

Here is a shot of the entrance past the launches. The channel is 5-7 feet deep and about 60 feet wide. The shoal that this shows on the north and east has encroached significantly since this shot and the entire channel is no longer useable (the northern half is 3-4 feet deep until abeam the piers). The rest of the water is 2-3 feet deep to the north and east outside of the channel. I have some pretty detailed depth soundings of the harbor since it continues to silt up

Though I was overtaking him by nature of the channel, once he turned 90 degrees to cross my bow, I feel this was a crossing situation as he was tacking north and south across the channel and not heading to the ramps at the time we approached. Again, I had no problem slowing to avoid him, and readily did so since my approach is that on a Sunday cruise, I am always the give way vessel (unless I am racing). But I am stickler for knowing the rules and how they apply and greatly appreciate the input.

 

[rpwillia]

My #0.02

Here is a shot of the entrance past the launches. The channel is 5-7 feet deep and about 60 feet wide. The shoal that this shows on the north and east has encroached significantly since this shot and the entire channel is no longer useable (the northern half is 3-4 feet deep until abeam the piers). The rest of the water is 2-3 feet deep to the north and east outside of the channel. I have some pretty detailed depth soundings of the harbor since it continues to silt up

Though I was overtaking him by nature of the channel, once he turned 90 degrees to cross my bow, I feel this was a crossing situation as he was tacking north and south across the channel and not heading to the ramps at the time we approached. Again, I had no problem slowing to avoid him, and readily did so since my approach is that on a Sunday cruise, I am always the give way vessel (unless I am racing). But I am stickler for knowing the rules and how they apply and greatly appreciate the input.

Since I was just at Washington Sailing Marina this past weekend and know the area well, I thought I would add my 2 cents. For a larger boat it is a bit hairy there as the channel is not very wide and not very deep. I tend to go slow going in there and out. There are also a lot of new sailors there who really don't have a clue what they are doing. Also that Flying Scot is not as burdened by the shallow water as a 35' O'Day is, and he can probably just sail over the shoal that separate the channel from the river with no problem. I doubt he was restricted to the channel and more likely screwing around. I like Maine Sail's :+1:approach best to just yell out Rule #9 and let clueless figure it out. Then again another thing I have learned from the marines at Quantico is that "some people just need a good killing." :naughty:

 

[dparilla]

Since I was just at Washington Sailing Marina this past weekend and know the area well, I thought I would add my 2 cents. For a larger boat it is a bit hairy there as the channel is not very wide and not very deep. I tend to go slow going in there and out. There are also a lot of new sailors there who really don't have a clue what they are doing. Also that Flying Scot is not as burdened by the shallow water as a 35' O'Day is, and he can probably just sail over the shoal that separate the channel from the river with no problem. I doubt he was restricted to the channel and more likely screwing around. I like Maine Sail's :+1:approach best to just yell out Rule #9 and let clueless figure it out. Then again another thing I have learned from the marines at Quantico is that "some people just need a good killing." :naughty:

Hey Tee-keel-la (Ray),
It was a blast hanging out with you guys this weekend (I was the first boat in from shore on A Dock .) I would say a good time was had by all (even the sea scouts who found out how shallow the entrance is outside the channel).

Dan

 

[jibes138]

Dan,
Another thing to do is sound five short blasts as a danger signal with an air horn. That should wake the guy up. Unfortunately there is no licensing process for boaters and even then skippers turn the wheel over to guests so while boating I never assume the other boat knows what they are doing. Then there is alcohol, regardless of right or wrong many boaters partake of alcoholic beverages on a day out boating, so if you assume the other skipper doesn't know what he/she is doing, and is also drunk, then it helps to guide the decision process for a prudent skipper. Personally I never touch a drop of alcohol while under command and if on a longer cruise involving overnight sailing I make sure there is none on board so there is no temptation.
I am going to start another thread with a link to the navigation rules, every skipper should have a copy on board and study them.

 

[dparilla]

I keep a copy of the Navigation Rules and the Blue Farwells explanation of the rules on board at all times. Having been trained by SWOs once upon a time, I recall it being mandatory for all boats to have an up to date copy on board. Never been asked to present it, but if, God Forbid, I ever do have a collision, I don't want to give the other guy's attorney any room to question.

 

[tkanzler]

If you were the give-way vessel, it's on you to make early and obvious corrections in course and/or speed so the stand-on vessel knows that you know you have to give way. BUT, it's also the stand-on vessels responsibility to stand-on, i.e. maintain course and speed, so the give-way vessel's actions actually work to avoid collision. Sounds to me like the stand-on vessel changed course when he shouldn't have, and turned right in front of you.

Rule 17- Action by Stand-on Vessel
(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way, the other shall keep her course and speed.

Of course, once hulls and rigging is broken, and/or people are hurt, and the lawyers get involved, everybody loses.

Edit: I should add that when I'm not sure just exactly what the other guy is going to do in a channel, I often end up almost or even completely stopped.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

Let's FINISH with . . .

. . . If this person was sailing in a narrow channel just for the fun of it then some oil tanker will probably get him some day when he claims his rights as a sailboat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkqKpnU8sCE

Can't say it is real or fake and I do see they are not sailing, but rather motoring, but still, getting ahead and centered is not a good path to living.