Right of way?

Maine Sail · Sep 9, 2012

dparilla said:
So I am coming home after a great afternoon sail, we have just dropped the main and furled the jib to round the corner into our marina: in front of me is a Flying Scott tacking back and forth across the very narrow channel to the marina. I figure he will see us and extend to one side or the other...NOPE, the ass tacks immediately in front of me so I shrug and head to starboard to stay clear of his stern. When my bow is almost abeam him he tacks again and heads in front of me again! The first time, I figure he was trying to clear the channel; the second time he stalls while tacking in the middle of the channel and about 50 feet from my bow. Keep in mind I have nowhere to haul out to avoid him, so I throw it in reverse and come to a stop. I yell over to please try not to tack right in front of me (he was so close aboard at this point that I could have beaned him with my koosie!) The loser yells at me that since he is sailing he ALWAYS has right of way. I told him that if you have right of way you are required to maintain course and speed and since I have nowhere to go but in the channel, I can't just go astern of him (especially when he keeps turning.) This is the first time that I almost had to clean another sailboat out of my bow. Am I wrong? I thought the rules of the road clearly specify to maintain course and speed, and if not that, all rules specify that you give up your right of way as the stand on vessel when you maneuver in such a way as to put someone into a position to take evasive action to avoid your dumb butt! I have always taught my students that even though you have the right of way, you should never be an ass hat about it, so I guess this guy doesn't believe in courtesy, or I have been teaching the wrong thing for years.

Meh,
Dan

Next time just yell RULE 9 !!!!

"

Rule 9

Narrow Channels

(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable.
(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow passage or fairway.
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow passage or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
(e)

(i) In a narrow channel or fairway when overtaking can take place only when the vessel to be overtaken has to take action to permit safe passing, the vessel intending to overtake shall indicate her intention by sounding the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(i). The vessel to be overtaken shall, if in agreement, sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(c)(ii) and take steps to permit safe passing. If in doubt she may sound the signals prescribed in Rule 34(d).
(ii) This rule does not relieve the overtaking vessel of her obligation under Rule 13.

(f) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a narrow channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall navigate with particular alertness and caution and shall sound the appropriate signal prescribed in Rule 34(e).
(g) Any vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, avoid anchoring in a narrow channel."

Were you draft constrained to remain in the channel..? Sail does not always have stand on privileges, in all cases, and some sailors, like this one, are sometimes unaware of the COLREGS..

And, as always we can't forget Rule 2:

"Rule 2

Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger."

Warren Milberg · Sep 9, 2012

Given the number of close calls I've had over the years, with both sailboats and powerboats, I never assume I have the right-of-way (even when I do...

). There are just too many people out there who either don't know or care about COLREGs or use common sense. My advice is to always get out of the way and do it early.

weinie · Sep 9, 2012

If you had barely enough room to navigate under power, the sailboat would've had even less, considering he needs to tack back and forth. Thus, I would think Rule 9b as quoted above would indicate that the other boat, having less room to safely maneuver, would be the stand on vessel.
And going on the assumption that not everyone knows Rule 9 (since I just learned about it 5 minutes ago), I would, if I was the motoring boat, reduce speed and give this boat room to tack.

justsomeguy · Sep 9, 2012

Warren Milberg said:
Given the number of close calls I've had over the years, with both sailboats and powerboats, I never assume I have the right-of-way (even when I do...). There are just too many people out there who either don't know or care about COLREGs or use common sense. My advice is to always get out of the way and do it early.

I wish I could contribute more to your reputation, but the website says I've done too much toward that end already, Mr. Milberg.

MrUnix · Sep 9, 2012

Having grown up on boats, I gotta agree with Warren.. and my common sense tells me that if he was under sail and you were under power, you were the one with the most ability to avoid a collision regardless of who had the right of way on paper.

Cheers,
Brad

sinnettc · Sep 9, 2012

I'm with Dan on this one. He was in a restricted channel and the flying scot tacked directly in front of him. The FS should have kept to his course, not forced Dan to stop, which probably means loss of steerage too.

Plus there's a bit of the Rule of Gross Tonnage too - Flying Scot = 4' draft with a centerboard, 850 lbs and 19 feet. Oday 35 is 5.58' draft, 11,500 lbs and 35 feet long; which is more maneuverable?

Courtesy is just lost on some people, I'm afraid. We were on Starboard this afternoon, headed down the lake at a good clip. The Sabres and Scorpions were chasing each other around the Olympic Circle in a Sunday afternoon race. I could have held my course and sailed on, possibly blanketing one or forcing an evasive maneuver as I held my course and insisted on my right of way. Instead we tacked away and headed back up the lake.

centerline · Sep 10, 2012

weinie said:
If you had barely enough room to navigate under power, the sailboat would've had even less, considering he needs to tack back and forth. Thus, I would think Rule 9b as quoted above would indicate that the other boat, having less room to safely maneuver, would be the stand on vessel.
And going on the assumption that not everyone knows Rule 9 (since I just learned about it 5 minutes ago), I would, if I was the motoring boat, reduce speed and give this boat room to tack.

it makes no difference if your a powerboater or a sailboater, being the "stand on" vessel means exactly that.... stand on your current course. that means you are not allowed to turn, tack or jibe without the possibility of giving up your privilege as the stand on vessel...
there may be situations where a boat has to give up his right as the stand on vessel for the sake of safety, and other situations where there has to be some understanding by both captains, but there are no rules written where the intent was to give the "stand on" boat the legal right to run another vessel aground or endanger it in any other manner, even if the other captain did not give way as he should have according to protocol.
the rules were written the way they are so that everyone knows what is expected of each other in close situations.

but on a more personal note, if someone wants to act like an ass to turn and cut across my bow when i dont have room to maneuver, I have the experience to know that my stem is way stronger than the side of his boat, so he can argue with that. and i also have the experience to know who will be found at fault when a boat gets broadsided by one that he just turned in front of.... but then, I also agree that if he can make three tacks before he gets close enough to me to worry about, then i could probably have figured out his plan of attack and anticipated a route that would eliminate any need for worry or stress....

jibes138 · Sep 10, 2012

Let's start with there is no such term as "right of way" in the navigation rules. Regardless of which vessel is stand on or give way BOTH SKIPPERS HAVE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE ACTION TO AVOID A COLLISION. Now what isn't clear is what direction the two boats were going. From the description it sounds like this is an overtaking situation. In that case the proper sound signal should be issued to indicate intention to pass and on what side, the other skipper is responsible to respond and once intentions and agreed to plan of action is reached then proceed to pass. If this vessel was also constrained by draft and limited to the channel then in an overtaking situation the overtaking vessel is the give way vessel. That said perhaps this other vessel lost power and was sailing to try to get back to a slip and had limited ability to control in a very stressful situation. If this person was sailing in a narrow channel just for the fun of it then some oil tanker will probably get him some day when he claims his rights as a sailboat.

All U Get · Sep 10, 2012

By stopping I believe you did the right thing but you could have offered a tow and cold one at the dock. In Portland Me the channel would be full of commercial and private craft so there were many boats to joust with when we made our way to the slip. My biggest rivals were the windjammers that would tack across the river during the evening rush. Occasionally they would make one more tack just when I thought I could get by. I'm sure there are a few photos of our boat in the "My Summer in Maine" visitors memorys albumn since we were close enough to casually talk to those on board.

Now Newport, RI is the real test for navigational rule bending. Every sailboat thinks they have the right of way, thinks they're racing for the cup, and don't care about commercial traffic. Even my wife commented about their behavior since several cut across our bow as we entered the harbor. We lost count of the little overturned daysailors that littered the channel in front of a tanker making his way to the sea. We made it to our mooring none the less.
All U Get

Maine Sail · Sep 10, 2012

jibes138 said:
Now what isn't clear is what direction the two boats were going. From the description it sounds like this is an overtaking situation.

Very good point, and one I missed in my first read!

I read it as the Flying Scott was coming out of the narrow channel and he was going in. If he was overtaking then he should have slowed or made appropriate signals to notify the FS of overtaking. Personally I would have tried to hail him on VHF 16 first but seeing as most boaters don't follow that rule either, well.....:cussing:

That said the FS still has no business tacking up a restricted channel and thinking he is the ultimate stand on vessel and everyone else is give way. Rule 9 is there for a reason. If you can't SAFELY navigate a narrow channel, without endangering other vessels in the channel, that may be draft constrained or otherwise, then you have no business being there in the first place, especially if just pleasure boating... Get a kicker if you need to. The FS lack of planning and disillusionment of the COLREGS does not make everyone else in the channel give way under all circumstances...

This is one of my biggest peeves in sailing.. What's even worse is when an race committee sets up a race course in a restricted channel. Happens all the time in the Western Way off of Mount Desert Island and is simply rude and obnoxious but the folks in that YC are clearly of navy colored blood, above everyone else, so are clearly "entitled" to burden everyone else by using the Western Way as a race course.......

As a fellow racer I try to always stay out of a race course but whe an RC sets it up in a narrow channel, with strong currents and strewn with granite ledges sometimes you just can't be as polite as you'd like..

We got into it with them two years ago on starboard and they refused to give way even though on they were on port. We were draft constrained coming in at low tide while on starboard tack and had already made course to get as close to the shallows as possible to avoid them... I tried to give way despite being stand on but when I got into shallow water had no choice. Three boats on port refused to alter course despite "technically" being the give way vessels.... The boat behind us was forced to furl sail and fire up the motor. He was really pissed and giving some one finger salutes.......

Merlin Clark · Sep 10, 2012

There is also Rule 10(j):
A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power driven vessel following a traffic lane.
http://www.boatingsafety.com/colregs.htm

We had a participant in a club race try to argue right of way over the VHF with a Trident submarine (CBD, Rule 9(b)) that was in the Port Canaveral approach channel (Rule 10 (j)).
The sailboat skipper "knew" he was right because someone told him that sailboats under sail always had right of way........
I agree that most situations can be handled by letting the numbskull go his way first when possible but if it starts getting ridiculous and there is no way to get around the numbskull, the harbor police or CG might be able to explain to him why he shouldn't be playing in traffic.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 10, 2012

What struck me about this little story was the references to the "ass", the "loser" and "ass hat" ... The use of pejoratives like that usually cause the abuser to lose all credibility for the argument. It just makes you sound like you are too angry of a person and self-rightious to have any sense of perspective.

It reminds me of a little incident that I encountered recently. We passed a small drifting boat to leeward, staying fairly close because we were headed windward. When we were about 500 feet away the guy starts blowing his horn. We passed about 4 boat lengths away and we were moving at about 4 knots or less since the wind was light. So once the drifting boat is astern, the guy is gesticulating and all WTF - what about 100'?!?!?

In my opinion, 4 boat lengths is at least 100' (who is surveying this distance anyway?) and nobody is swimming around the boat so my response is something like "chill-out, brother" - admittedly, more than a little smart-alecky.

What follows is a torrent of obscenities ... and this from a guy with a boat-load of kids. What a great example to set, eh? At this point, I am usually glad that it is the other guy's blood-pressure that is rising and not mine over such a trivial dispute so a friendly wave is all that can be offered in reply.

So do you really think this conflict needed to rise to such a level of discord?

Gail R · Sep 10, 2012

What's not clear to me here is: How narrow is narrow? Our home harbor (South Freeport, ME) has a pretty narrow entrance -- one that makes Western Way (referenced by MaineSail) look like a cakewalk with oodles of room to maneuver.

So I ask if the channel really so narrow that an O'Day 35 cannot make a brief course change to avoid the tacking FS?

We once had to tack into our harbor in our Pearson 30 when our batteries went flat and we couldn't start the engine. Even though we might have been able to consider ourselves the stand-on vessel (on a Sunday afternoon no less), we watched for other traffic and timed our entrance to ensure minimal disruption to others. Just common courtesy.

kenn · Sep 10, 2012

The yacht club we belong to has about 350 keelboats but also a large contingent of drysailers - Lasers, Hobies, etc as well as some racing purebreads like Solings, Melges, and even a couple 8-meter boats. And, a strong junior sail program with Optimists, Albacores, etc. So we have lots of sailboats tacking in and out of the club.

It's been my unfortunate experience to observe that unless conditioned to look out for small sailboats, many keelboaters simply blast in and out of their clubs/marinas by the shortest path possible. Our 19' boat still gets squeezed or run down by larger boats under motor who think we should tremble and yield before their magnificent waterlines :cussing:

So, my question to Dan is: how slow were you going when you encountered the Flying Scot? My fear is that you might have been going at an OK speed for the marina if your path had been clear, but maybe a bit fast given the presence of the tacking sailboat, which made maneuvering and prediction that much harder for both of you?

dscribner · Sep 10, 2012

My "assumption" was the power boaters know 4 things (left, right, fast, slow) and sailors know so mush more. But, I have been completely cut off more than a few times by sailors. I will "assume" that they are clueless or careless.
I'm on a starboard tack on a collision course with a 40 foot cutter that's on a port tack, I am the stand-on vessel. I would think the skipper of such a large craft would know this. I had to give way to avoid an incident. Another time, same thing, I pulled up wind, nearly stalling, then drifted back on course, missing the other by a decent margin, but a little miffed. I may be small, but in 80+ feet of water, I am as privileged as any other.

Essentially, if you're on a port tack or are windward on the same tack, you must relinquish the "right of way" (I know there is no such thing on the water) to the privileged vessel. Why is this so hard for some?

tommays · Sep 10, 2012

I got idiots that think its OK to pull that crap when i am 14' from grabing my mooring ball

OR WHEN i go out of my way to someplace with nobody to furl the sails

RichH · Sep 10, 2012

just remember that the ULTIMATE Colregs statute is: NO COLLISIONS.

And since you usually always have an 'out' to avoid a collision, the admiralty court will always assign you the 'innocent' a partial or percent of blame and liability ... because YOU did not avoid the collision!!!!!!

If you dont know how to suddenly and without thinking how to slow down, 'back down' and instantly STOP your boat when under power, know how to do a snap-gybe or a snap heave-to .... please consider to stay home.

rardiH36 · Sep 10, 2012

RichH said:
just remember that the ULTIMATE Colregs statute is: NO COLLISIONS.

And since you usually always have an 'out' to avoid a collision, the admiralty court will always assign you the 'innocent' a partial or percent of blame and liability ... because YOU did not avoid the collision!!!!!!

If you dont know how to suddenly and without thinking how to slow down, 'back down' and instantly STOP your boat when under power, know how to do a snap-gybe or a snap heave-to .... please consider to stay home.

RichH:

Right on advice. The most important thing is not to have a collision.

Sorry for another "this is my story". An example of your comments was two weekends ago while we were sailing parallel to the San Francisco waterfront. Things were busy due to the AC45 World Cup series which had ended about one hour before. But all boats were considerate and skippers were paying attention. Except: -- For about five minutes I had been glancing back over my port stern at a very large sailboat (45-50 ft) that was gradually overtaking me on the same general course, but angling ever so slightly towards me. Rendezvous was looking to be at my likely "stand-on" future position. We were both under sail. Both of us on the port tack. The big boat up wind from me and over-taking from behind. As it got closer, it's course still didn't change. Winds were relatively light and speed only 3-4 kts. So even at a close distance there was still time to avoid an incident and also to yell out at the other boat to ask its intention. But also I could see that the helmsman was engaged in conversation with a passenger with back to me. When I yelled to catch his intention, he looked at me said he wanted to go where I was going to be. Then he immediately turned his back again to resume his conversation. It would have been so easy for the helmsman to just adopt a parallel course with me. Or to have earlier altered course a bit to pass behind me. By this time, I realized that if I altered course to parallel his I would be crabbed by him into a drifting tourist boat. Decision needed to be made as continuing further would have severely limited my maneuvering options. After a quick look around, I did a hard tack to starboard to get myself out of the situation. And with much effort I refrained from getting agitated. The day was otherwise too nice to have ruined. I can only guess that the guy was the type that routinely plays a game of chicken when on the water. The type of behavior that many car drivers also do. Don't make eye contact with the other guy. Because if you pretend you don't see the other car or boat, then you can just bully your way through.