Best Boat for Teaching Families to Sail?
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Julia,
Having different boats to choose from would be an advantage. The other thing that you may attempt to do is grab a sponsor.
We really do need to get more young people into this sport. I am 34 and feel like a minority when I cruise because I am younger than most around me.
Having different boats to choose from would be an advantage. The other thing that you may attempt to do is grab a sponsor.
We really do need to get more young people into this sport. I am 34 and feel like a minority when I cruise because I am younger than most around me.
Not an angry response ...
I'll admit that I didn't look at your website until after gpd said something about it. It does appear that you have some very impressive credentials for someone so young. I will take your youth into account for the way you presented your request.
Your light-hearted response to Sinnetc seemed to indicate that your safety and the safety of your pets are your main focus and secondarily the safety of the inexperienced people who place their trust in you.
Most of us get all mushy inside when we think of non-profit and choosing boats, and helping kids. Most of us are also familiar with a tragedy in San Diego that involved, non-profit, a trailerable sailboat and an overloaded cockpit. I think many people had previously high-regards for the Captain who was involved in that tragedy.
I am also adept at reading between the lines and I suspected that it hasn't been easy to make a go of a non-profit with the expensive upkeep of a large boat. You were the one who placed the emphasis on "old" and "cheap". This would not inspire any confidence in me that you would place the necessary premium on "safety" when selecting a boat that is going to be occupied by people who have very little to no experience. Besides that, we all believe the Oregon coast to be a particularly foreboding environment for a casual or light-hearted approach that involves youths who may not have any perception of the dangers that you may be leading them into.
When I was 26, I had a notion that I could overcome any obstacle or danger and I may have been willing to look past the dangers when leading others into what I believed to be an adventure. Experience teaches people otherwise. Sometimes, just plain good luck was all that stood between an adventure and tragedy. It often takes a little bit of aging to understand this sad truth.
I'll admit that I didn't look at your website until after gpd said something about it. It does appear that you have some very impressive credentials for someone so young. I will take your youth into account for the way you presented your request.
Your light-hearted response to Sinnetc seemed to indicate that your safety and the safety of your pets are your main focus and secondarily the safety of the inexperienced people who place their trust in you.
Most of us get all mushy inside when we think of non-profit and choosing boats, and helping kids. Most of us are also familiar with a tragedy in San Diego that involved, non-profit, a trailerable sailboat and an overloaded cockpit. I think many people had previously high-regards for the Captain who was involved in that tragedy.
I am also adept at reading between the lines and I suspected that it hasn't been easy to make a go of a non-profit with the expensive upkeep of a large boat. You were the one who placed the emphasis on "old" and "cheap". This would not inspire any confidence in me that you would place the necessary premium on "safety" when selecting a boat that is going to be occupied by people who have very little to no experience. Besides that, we all believe the Oregon coast to be a particularly foreboding environment for a casual or light-hearted approach that involves youths who may not have any perception of the dangers that you may be leading them into.
When I was 26, I had a notion that I could overcome any obstacle or danger and I may have been willing to look past the dangers when leading others into what I believed to be an adventure. Experience teaches people otherwise. Sometimes, just plain good luck was all that stood between an adventure and tragedy. It often takes a little bit of aging to understand this sad truth.
sailorgirl........ I also checked out your project online and admire what you've accomplished so far. It makes so much sense to get rid of that maintenance intensive ketch and concentrate your resources on more productive results. Yes there will be maintenance on a small fleet of older fiberglass production boats..... but upkeep on boats is exponential in relation to their size... so you're on the right track.Thanks winkfish, I was getting pretty discouraged by the negativityGlad to hear there are helpful people on here as well. I am really looking forward to the coming year, and getting more people on the water! Another idea I want to try is building Bolger designed plywood instant boats, I built one last summer, I think it could be a really great way for kids to get started on lakes and such. He has quite a cult following- I think we can build them for about $200 each. I want the kids to raise half the money, I will raise the other half, and then they keep the boat.
As far as negativity here......... please understand that the general nature of our forum is conservative and most of us are well past forty.... there's one guy here who is constantly posting newsblurgs of boating mishaps.... and that leads to lots of safety and legal discussions.... which, to some, may seem to discourage the more adventurous..... or, to others, cover up the envy they have for those willing to be adventurous.
Scott's previous post mentions some of the things we've discussed in the past... so, many of us are concerned and quite willing to offer advice and caution warnings.... even when not requested.... but most of us are old and conservative (did I mention conservative... old?)
In any event, a simple question can become a topic of opinion and comment that has nothing to do with the original query.... so ..... even though some folks here may lose their focus..... I encourage you not to lose yours. You will find the right boats..... may even get some donated.
There are many boats around here in the 22 to 28 foot range that can be had by simply asking.. I'm certain things are the same in your area.
If you are non-profit org. you could set up a donor program that would free up the cash from your formosa to be applied to getting the donor boats fixed up and safe to sail....
The fact that you've come this far proves that you're capable of going farther in this new direction. Good Luck... if I can help in any way.... you can contact me via the PM feature on this site.
Scott
Sometimes folks ask questions without much background info and then dislike the responses including the constructive criticism they receive as though they were expecting something else.
I know we all appreciate that people ask questions to gain information and a better understanding but they don't necessarily want to hear everything regardless of how well-intended it is.
In this case, it sounds to me like someone has some experience in sailing and thinks that translates into unlicensed charter training which the regs are intended to prevent.
Sometimes folks ask questions without much background info and then dislike the responses including the constructive criticism they receive as though they were expecting something else.
I know we all appreciate that people ask questions to gain information and a better understanding but they don't necessarily want to hear everything regardless of how well-intended it is.
In this case, it sounds to me like someone has some experience in sailing and thinks that translates into unlicensed charter training which the regs are intended to prevent.
@Scott T-Bird, thanks for thinking I'm 26! Apology accepted. I do apologize if you find my humour unsafe and distasteful but at my age, we try not to take ourselves too seriously. (Ok I'm still a little mad). I do agree that safety is a huge concern and I appreciate your thoughts. I think every captain's greatest fear is injuries (or worse) aboard. I know it's mine.
@Joe- thanks for the constructive help. I was not aware of conservative nature of this forum. But, I am now! That being said, I do value all the opinions. I was just a bit shocked at the tone. I grew up in a sailing family, and I have always enjoyed the notion that sailors are a friendly, welcoming bunch. Which is still true. I think. BACK ON TOPIC- thank you for great input about my project. I am putting together a new email list and will be sure to message you.
@Don- I know I shouldn't get into a legal discussion with you, but now I feel like I have to defend our honor!
I am not sure why you think I would be able to get away with unlicensed charters with KIDS on board! Trust me, people notice. I am USCG licensed merchant mariner, just like the rest of em. I would never put my hard earned credentials in jeopardy by skirting the rules.
We have been inspected by the coast gaurd, who is fully aware of our activities, and passed, multiple times.
We are supported through private donations to our federally recognized 501 (c)(3). And my credit cards. Well, at least until they turned them off. Hence the boat sale.
Also, it clearly states on my website that we only hire licensed captains. Not because we do charters, but because I value the qualification. And by hire, I mean allow them to pay their own way, food, and contribute to moorage. And by them, I mean me. I am always hiring though . . .
I hope that clears up any misconceptions.
@Joe- thanks for the constructive help. I was not aware of conservative nature of this forum. But, I am now! That being said, I do value all the opinions. I was just a bit shocked at the tone. I grew up in a sailing family, and I have always enjoyed the notion that sailors are a friendly, welcoming bunch. Which is still true. I think. BACK ON TOPIC- thank you for great input about my project. I am putting together a new email list and will be sure to message you.
@Don- I know I shouldn't get into a legal discussion with you, but now I feel like I have to defend our honor!
I am not sure why you think I would be able to get away with unlicensed charters with KIDS on board! Trust me, people notice. I am USCG licensed merchant mariner, just like the rest of em. I would never put my hard earned credentials in jeopardy by skirting the rules.
We have been inspected by the coast gaurd, who is fully aware of our activities, and passed, multiple times.
We are supported through private donations to our federally recognized 501 (c)(3). And my credit cards. Well, at least until they turned them off. Hence the boat sale.
Also, it clearly states on my website that we only hire licensed captains. Not because we do charters, but because I value the qualification. And by hire, I mean allow them to pay their own way, food, and contribute to moorage. And by them, I mean me. I am always hiring though . . .
I hope that clears up any misconceptions.
Please don't be put off by any perceived negativity you might be feeling. Everyone is trying to be helpful in their own way; even if that means admonishing you of the risks that you are probably already well aware of.
I have volunteered for a teen sailing program for several years so I know something about running a sailing program on a shoe string budget (Sunfish sailboats only). While it would be nice to have a fleet of trailer-able Nor'Sea 27' sailboats (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=437) or Pacific Seacraft 25's (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=298) to use, that is not going to happen because they are expensive.
I think you may have to start soliciting donations for boats in your local area and decide which ones might fit your criteria. It would be nice if the donors could write off their donations, which I think your organization can do.
The Pearson Ensign 22' I mentioned appears to be a popular boat on the right coast but not so much on the left coast, so boat brand availability varies a bit by location.
Not much in the way of 'cheap' boats on Seattle craigslist right now. I looked. I did find this Cheoy-Lee 31' for what seemed like a modest asking price: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2965091683.html
You would miss your beautiful Formosa 41' but this boat could be a smaller (less expensive) big boat for your program to use for overnights and off shore, if it is in good shape. Use any savings towards a fleet of smaller boats for teaching, racing...
Just throwing out ideas here...
I wish you the best of luck with your sailing program. I'd volunteer if I was in Seattle.
Please do not be discouraged.
I have volunteered for a teen sailing program for several years so I know something about running a sailing program on a shoe string budget (Sunfish sailboats only). While it would be nice to have a fleet of trailer-able Nor'Sea 27' sailboats (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=437) or Pacific Seacraft 25's (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=298) to use, that is not going to happen because they are expensive.
I think you may have to start soliciting donations for boats in your local area and decide which ones might fit your criteria. It would be nice if the donors could write off their donations, which I think your organization can do.
The Pearson Ensign 22' I mentioned appears to be a popular boat on the right coast but not so much on the left coast, so boat brand availability varies a bit by location.
Not much in the way of 'cheap' boats on Seattle craigslist right now. I looked. I did find this Cheoy-Lee 31' for what seemed like a modest asking price: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/2965091683.html
You would miss your beautiful Formosa 41' but this boat could be a smaller (less expensive) big boat for your program to use for overnights and off shore, if it is in good shape. Use any savings towards a fleet of smaller boats for teaching, racing...
Just throwing out ideas here...
I wish you the best of luck with your sailing program. I'd volunteer if I was in Seattle.
Please do not be discouraged.
Hi Caleb,
I know, I should be less sensitive. I am well aware that everyone has an opinion, and I asked for it That's great that you volunteered! The formosa was actually donated, so I have some experience with that process. Good find on the cheoy-lee- maybe he wants a write-off! I actually live in Coos Bay, oregon right now- Newport is right up the road (three hours) . If you are ever in the neighborhood, they have an amazing yacht club called the Yaquina Bay Yacht club with a great group of very dedicated people. Their junior sailing program is growing like crazy, I am hoping we can grow ours to match as they would be the nearest racing competitor Those kids are pretty hardcore, they grow em' tough on the coast. I for one, strongly dislike swimming is this water but I swear they like it.
Thanks for all the ideas!
Cheers,
Julia
I know, I should be less sensitive. I am well aware that everyone has an opinion, and I asked for it
That's great that you volunteered! The formosa was actually donated, so I have some experience with that process. Good find on the cheoy-lee- maybe he wants a write-off! I actually live in Coos Bay, oregon right now- Newport is right up the road (three hours) . If you are ever in the neighborhood, they have an amazing yacht club called the Yaquina Bay Yacht club with a great group of very dedicated people. Their junior sailing program is growing like crazy, I am hoping we can grow ours to match as they would be the nearest racing competitor Those kids are pretty hardcore, they grow em' tough on the coast. I for one, strongly dislike swimming is this water but I swear they like it. Thanks for all the ideas!
Cheers,
Julia
Are you thinking of the Dana 24? They are good and tough boats, but they are very expensive. A friend of mine had one and it was impressive....just slow.
Julia, one thing is for sure ...
you are no troll! You seemed genuinely surprised about that comment so I am sorry for that ... a troll on the internet is somebody who posts something to stir up controversy, as if they are "trolling" for controversial responses. It is very rare in this forum.
After reading thru your website, it's apparent that you have become very accomplished for such a young age and we do wish for your success. It seems that I have a daughter your age ... that's how old I am, as Joe likes to point out!
Your enthusiasm is a great sign. It appears that you are very resourceful so you will find a way to keep this program together.
you are no troll! You seemed genuinely surprised about that comment so I am sorry for that ... a troll on the internet is somebody who posts something to stir up controversy, as if they are "trolling" for controversial responses. It is very rare in this forum.
After reading thru your website, it's apparent that you have become very accomplished for such a young age and we do wish for your success. It seems that I have a daughter your age ... that's how old I am, as Joe likes to point out!
Your enthusiasm is a great sign. It appears that you are very resourceful so you will find a way to keep this program together.
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The Dana 24' is also one of the Pacific Seacraft models, now spun off to ... http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=797
Pacific Seacraft has a very solid reputation for their designs and build quality, hence their resale prices are higher then most brands.
Even the PS made Montgomery 17' and 23' are considered 'blue water' capable boats by many.
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5281
http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5912
I wish you luck getting hold of any Pacific Seacraft boat for cheap though.
You never know.
My best.
in my youth our family learned to sail in a 36 ft gaff rigged sloop with no lifelines and no life raft and no epirb. we lived thru it and love sailing more for having learned on a family bat that is a national historic treasure --we sailed the hudson river fo cartkill creek south and north for many years.
find a boat you love and go from there. isnt magic nor is it mysterious.
smoooth sailing.
find a boat you love and go from there. isnt magic nor is it mysterious.
smoooth sailing.
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Sailorgirl,
I'm sorry if my post came off as a flame. It was a cross of incredulity and concern borne of my upbringing and, as Joe mentioned, conservatism (I'm not quite ready to admit old age even if I am twice yours).
I'm a Coast Guard brat and was raised listening to the stories of rescues on both coasts, and if there's one thing I never want to do, it's have to tell my Dad that I became part of one of those stories. We lived in Coos Bay, there were lots of stories there. That colored my response.
As I said, I do applaud what you're doing, and unless Coos Bay has changed more than I think it has, there's no youth (or otherwise) sailing programs there and they could use one. I'm just not ready to advocate crossing the bar in a small/swing keel trailerable for an overnighter.
Save the cats!
I'm sorry if my post came off as a flame.
It was a cross of incredulity and concern borne of my upbringing and, as Joe mentioned, conservatism (I'm not quite ready to admit old age even if I am twice yours).I'm a Coast Guard brat and was raised listening to the stories of rescues on both coasts, and if there's one thing I never want to do, it's have to tell my Dad that I became part of one of those stories. We lived in Coos Bay, there were lots of stories there. That colored my response.
As I said, I do applaud what you're doing, and unless Coos Bay has changed more than I think it has, there's no youth (or otherwise) sailing programs there and they could use one. I'm just not ready to advocate crossing the bar in a small/swing keel trailerable for an overnighter.
Save the cats!
Macgregor 22-25. about 2-5k
ballasted steel keel, more stable than the water ballasted later boats. sail well, big little boats.
you just need to check the keel pivot bolt. and balance the ruder, and tune the rig. and you'd be good to go.
perfect weekender for a family on a budget.
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Pearson Ensign - better school boat. Huge cockpit. or maybe a Rhodes 22
ballasted steel keel, more stable than the water ballasted later boats. sail well, big little boats.
you just need to check the keel pivot bolt. and balance the ruder, and tune the rig. and you'd be good to go.
perfect weekender for a family on a budget.
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Pearson Ensign - better school boat. Huge cockpit. or maybe a Rhodes 22
Thanks for all the help everybody. I am headed up to Seattle to sell our formosa, I will be keeping my eyes open for any of the boats mentioned. @ Chris: SAVE THE CATS! I know you are all just concerned for everyone's safety. As we all have been so recently reminded (AGAIN), the ocean is a very dangerous place. My thoughts and prayers are with the family's of the entire crew of the Aegean, and all the sailors lost at sea.
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