Atomic 4 engine pros and cons

[Gail R]

Ethanol issues

Stu,
I think that this photo should answer your question. This was the last gallon or so of what I manually pumped out of our 20 gal. fuel tank this spring.
To be fair, we have owned the boat for 8 years and this year was the first time I tried to clean up the old fuel that has been in our tank for lord knows how long.
And BTW gasoline is my friend, ethanol not at all. If I could get alcohol free fuel I would use it even at twice the price. Non ethanol gasoline does not phase separate and turn into the crap shown in my picture. Ethanol is a menace and a disgrace.

Do any of you diesel guys have pictures of the green slime that diesel turns into when water and bacteria get going in the tank?

We address the enthanol issue by storing her for the winter with a full tank. When the tank is full and little air/water vapor can get in, phase separation is not an issue.

My hubby wonders if the fuel stabilizers are little more than snake oil, but we admit to knowing people who swear by them. To each his own.

Oh, and we could do without Stu's "boom" remark. Run the blower and sniff the bilge exhaust before starting the engine and you are FINE.

 

[Gunni]

The eathonal is not added untill the truck is filled at the distribution point. They can not run it through the pipelines or store it which is one of the reasons it adds to the cost at the pump.

Ethanol is added by the distributor, who gets a $0.45/gal. tax refund for blending biofuel into gasoline - so the price of E10 should be lower at the pump. E15 even lower still. If the retailer is passing on the savings.

 

[CalebD]

CalebD --
...snip...

So, is your fuel pickup really that high in your tank? It seems that you should have pumped out the crap off the bottom FIRST.

Also, thinking about a science fair experiment, you said that e-free gas won't phase separate and turn into the crap shown in your picture. Is there an industry citation that you can point to? From my own experience, e-free or not, gas will loose is most volitile products to evaporation and eventually turn to varnish.

I am not saying that ethonol is great for our boats. However, it is a great solvent. I think it actually helps to keep the tank clean. In your photo, it certainly suspended all sorts of crap. Would e-free gas had removed that or let it sit in your tank?

Robert,
Yes, I guess it could have been worse.
You have discovered one reason why we have been having ethanol "issues". Our pick up tube picks up from just below 1/2 the tank depth. I think it is corroded and should be replaced.
I don't think that e-free gas will phase separate but it will loose some of its volatility over time. I have no scientific citation for this just anecdotal evidence.
The real problem with phase separation is once the ethyl alcohol is free of the fuel it collects water and the dark crap at the bottom of the bottles in my picture is a mix of water, alcohol and bacteria.

I'm with Gail that the "BOOM" remark is uncalled for. Remarks like this make it seem as though gasoline powered boats blow up every day which is far from the truth. In fact I'd challenge anyone to find a link to an Atomic 4 powered boat that did burn or explode.

 

[bakes]

Just another anecdote I guess. I did leave gasoline in an outboard tank for 11 years and decided to try it in 2010. The engine never missed and planed the boat up as quick as ever. The engine had not been run in that 11 years.

 

[tommays]

A4 powered C&C 35 Gandalf did blowup and burn to the waterline in 2009 but that is the only one I have ever seen

There have been far more propane pops

 

[Stu Jackson]

BOOM - No excuses

Excuse me, but I've seen a 42 foot motoryacht literally blow up, so boom does apply. Thankfully the CG was close by and other vessels came also to assist in the rescue of the family: M&Dad and 2 young girls. I'm very glad they made it home that day. The boat burned for 2 hours and sank.

Sure, safety is the priority, and I had gas engine (outboard) boats from 1983 to 1998, and still carry gas on board our diesel engined boat for the outboard.

So, please, don't brush the reality off. It happens. I'm not trying to scare anyone who takes adequate precautions, but he did ask about the difference between gas and diesel.

The reply was and remains appropriate.

 

[philwsailz]

Excuse me, but I've seen a 42 foot motoryacht literally blow up, so boom does apply. Thankfully the CG was close by and other vessels came also to assist in the rescue of the family: M&Dad and 2 young girls. I'm very glad they made it home that day. The boat burned for 2 hours and sank.

Sure, safety is the priority, and I had gas engine (outboard) boats from 1983 to 1998, and still carry gas on board our diesel engined boat for the outboard.

So, please, don't brush the reality off. It happens. I'm not trying to scare anyone who takes adequate precautions, but he did ask about the difference between gas and diesel.

The reply was and remains appropriate.

While I have an A4 I agree with Stu. Precaution and maintenance is key. When you have had an opportunity to literally see YOUR gas engine mechanic bail from a boat that caught fire from a fuel leak you appreciate more fully proper maintenance, care, and bilge blower habits... It was a tired boat and in the end we all had a laugh; nobody was hurt and it happened well away from the public, but it was a reminder to me to not assume things are fine.

Whether sail, recreational, or vocational, a gas propulsion system requires respect and routine. Inspection is paramount. Follow a prudent routine. If something seems amiss, stop and fix it. A well maintained gasoline system is totally safe. Neglect and lack of respect and routine gets people in trouble. That is when BOOM happens.

I plan on a routine of careful operation and maintenance. The only BOOM I hope to come in close proximity to is at the bottom of the main...

 

[CalebD]

No offense meant Stu. Except the boom effect is often most associated with propane fuels: http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51
With proper precautions taken a gas engine is nearly as safe as a good diesel installation. It is the "BOOM" warning that many of us take as an overwhelmingly ridiculous argument when so many of our working boats are powered by gasoline.
As a smoker I am twice as concerned about the 'boom' factor.
Diesels smell, vibrate excessively, can run for hours and I like them for all of those traits. I also like the delicate way my A4 purrs along but it is a very different animal.

 

[RobertLangdirect]

The eathonal is not added untill the truck is filled at the distribution point. They can not run it through the pipelines or store it which is one of the reasons it adds to the cost at the pump.

OH! Thanks. That makes sense -- re the distro point and blending it there.

Thanks!

 

[JonnyQuest]

Local independent retailer explained that franchised stations are required to have ethanol while independents can do they want. I assume that it is the franchisor that is requiring ethanol (again assumedly, in order to obtain valuable subsidies at taxpayer expense!)

 

[kloudie1]

It is a mandate from your federal government that the big guys use ethanol to blend.. they don't get paid for doing it but they can't supply gov contracts unless they do. The big farm congloms are the ones who are getting the big dollars for supplying the ethanol/corn.. Oh did ya notice that they also benefit from the higher food corn prices brought about by farmers shifting to ethanol.. all brought to you by the brainiacs in DC (past and present)
Man all this started because of a post about Atomic power..!!??

 

[philwsailz]

Well back to the A4....

As a hobbyist two-stroke wrench, the statement about the older motors being more tolerant to the new fuel makes sense. That of course assumes proper fuel storage and filtering practice, as the "corn" will dilute and break loose all sorts of accumulated gunk, including old fuel lines.

Assuming a sailor has nothing available but E10... What filtering mesh size will be appropriate to keep A4 carb orifices clean? What would the experts recommend?

Running newer lead-free fuels, what precautions need to be taken to preserve valve seats of any? Is it an issue with this relatively low-compression flat-head design?

A4 owners who have accumulated hours... What tweaks have you made to improve maintenance ease? What mods have you undertaken? Anyone done an electronic ignition upgrade? Who has added an oil filter? Dipstick extension? Electric fuel pump? What have you done to make living with an A4 easier?

I want to learn...

 

[All U Get]

Check Indigo electronics for upgrades, I did with my Atomic 4 and it really made a difference. http://www.atomic4.com/
All U Get

 

[tommays]

Well back to the A4....

As a hobbyist two-stroke wrench, the statement about the older motors being more tolerant to the new fuel makes sense. That of course assumes proper fuel storage and filtering practice, as the "corn" will dilute and break loose all sorts of accumulated gunk, including old fuel lines.

Assuming a sailor has nothing available but E10... What filtering mesh size will be appropriate to keep A4 carb orifices clean? What would the experts recommend?

Running newer lead-free fuels, what precautions need to be taken to preserve valve seats of any? Is it an issue with this relatively low-compression flat-head design?

A4 owners who have accumulated hours... What tweaks have you made to improve maintenance ease? What mods have you undertaken? Anyone done an electronic ignition upgrade? Who has added an oil filter? Dipstick extension? Electric fuel pump? What have you done to make living with an A4 easier?

I want to learn...

I have FWC and used the new Moyer water pump ,electronic ignition, intake valves ,valve springs ,thermostat and all new electric and fuel system

 

[Maine Sail]

I have no problems with the A4, but, many folks buying sailboats do. Right or wrong, mostly wrong, this is the current reality.

If I had two identical boats I was looking at, in the same condition, with the only difference being the engines, gas vs. diesel, and the price premium for diesel was 5-10% or so I'd go with the diesel boat (8-10% assuming boats under 30K). Again, all else being equal..

This is NOT because of safety but for future resale and the sheer time it takes to sell gas powered sail boats vs. the same boat in diesel. I once had my friend Kyle, a yacht broker, run a Soldboats.com query on sailboats we knew to have been sold with both diesel & gas. I was tire kicking an older gas boat at the time.

We selected about 4 or 5 different boats to examine market data on. The boats with gas engines sat on the market about 55-70% longer than did the same models with diesel and this was when the market was hot. I can't even guess what that difference might be in a bad boat market.. Right or wrong that was what we found on the models we examined so that sort of thing should be in the decision pool..

If I had a boat with an A4 I would re-build it before re-powering to diesel, if I planned to keep the boat for the long haul...

Safety is a non-issue for me with the A4. There will always be Darwin award type boat owners and they could just as easily figure out how to kill themselves with diesel...

Also most sailboats also have a propane system and very often gas for an outboard or explosive chemicals such as acetone or other potent solvents than can also go boom..

55% of boat fires are ELECTRICAL in nature.... I'd focus on making the electrical system safe before getting our panties in a knot about a an A4....

 

[philwsailz]

I have FWC and used the new Moyer water pump ,electronic ignition, intake valves ,valve springs ,thermostat and all new electric and fuel system

Very sanitary! I like the clean white...

 

[tommays]

While i believe Mainsail about selling time my boat surveyed above the value of diesel powered Cal 29s when it was finished

If you look at how my boat was before i did the refit it is now wonder the A4 gets a bad name

NOT that a diesel would have faired any better in those conditions and i think given how bad the fuel was the diesel would have had much more dammage to the fuel system

 

[Gunni]

Am I the only one who stores their propane, gasoline, solvents in gravity vented lockers; and has their electrical system fused to ABYC specs, batteries boxed? There is a good reason why the old gasoline powered boats don't sell - sailors are notorious for not doing proper engine maintenance, and DIY blunders - the downside of which is catastrophic.

The ocean is constantly trying to kill me, I need the boat to have my back, and stay afloat under me too! That said, the only two explosions I ever saw were at the fuel dock, on restart. Both on motorboats.

Tommays, that is some exceptional nice work you did.

 

[shipwreck66]

With diesel fuel, as long as you add bio bloc and stablizers to it, you can pretty much rely on it to store for years. I pumped out three gallons off the bottom of my tank this last spring and it was amazingly clear. The only reason I had an issue was some condensation has clogged the injector during the hard freeze week we had in late February, about a teaspoon. Also, with 18 gallons and figuring it takes me about 3 years to use that much, I knew the PO had been topping off the tank for years since the fuel sending unit had long since departed usefullness.

 

[kpgraci]

Luckily my marina carries ethanol free at $4 a gallon. So do several gas stations in the area.

I would think the marina gas is what they claim, but I have found gas stations that claim to sell e-free, but I have tested it and found one that was not. They may not do it knowingly, they have to take the word of the guy filling their tank.

Ethanol testing kits are cheap, or you can make your own...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsSQSuCiUjE