More Sail Equals less Heel?

BroadReach · Jul 12, 2011

Mast Rake Setting.

Who ever set up the length of your fore stay did so for a 130 Genoa.
When you flew your 110 the mast rake was not set for that size sail.
There is a different mast rake setting (fore stay length) for each one of your head sails.
That with the smaller 110 and the weather helm and slow water speed the rudder was causing a great deal of drag.
When you went to the 130 headsail the rudder was very happy, you had a higher water speed because of less rudder drag (IE. weather helm).

Setting mast rake is not hard but it is head sail specific.
There is a lot of information in in the archives on this subject.

If needed ask some more question and the Hunter owners will be glad to help.

Broad Reach

Joe · Jul 12, 2011

BroadReach said:
Who ever set up the length of your fore stay did so for a 130 Genoa.
When you flew your 110 the mast rake was not set for that size sail.
There is a different mast rake setting (fore stay length) for each one of your head sails.
That with the smaller 110 and the weather helm and slow water speed the rudder was causing a great deal of drag.
When you went to the 130 headsail the rudder was very happy, you had a higher water speed because of less rudder drag (IE. weather helm).

Setting mast rake is not hard but it is head sail specific.
There is a lot of information in in the archives on this subject.

If needed ask some more question and the Hunter owners will be glad to help.

Broad Reach

Are you serious? You mean if I'm racing and change from the #1 genoa, to the #2 Lapper or the #3 blade, I have to go forward and alter the forestay length so I can change the mast rake for each sail? LOL

Adjusting the mast rake is NOT headsail specific.... whoever told you that?

Geez.

tommays · Jul 13, 2011

Re: More Sail Equals Lwss Heal?

Kind of hard to believe a 25 shoal keel boat could carry a 130 and full mainsail in 20 knots and only heel to 15 degrees

The whole lee helm thing with the 100% makes no sense at all as if your overpowered and setup correctly you should always have weather helm and might get some lee helm in light air

rgranger · Jul 13, 2011

I'm no expert but ...

Maybe your smaller jib is blown? With out the "slot effect" you main does not give you the performance it should and so you have two sails under performing = 3 kph.

I have three head sails, a 50%, a 75% and a 110%, and I can reef my main by rolling it on the mast. I have found that if I play with the relative proportions of my two sails and get them balanced (and I'm not sure of the physics of this, I just go with my gut) the boat does tremendously better and I can feel safe and move well in strong winds.
Next time you are using your smaller headsail, try reefing the main and see if you can get them "balanced".

I have also observed that in higher wind, you need to keep up your forward speed through the water if you want to feel in control. So maybe you are seeing that effect. You boat is moving faster with the genoa so it behaves better. (?)

It is also true that a flatter boat moves faster. Is it possible that you are hauling in harder on the sheets when you had the smaller headsail up and maybe you had the main and genoa eased a bit when you were running under the genoa?

FourPoints · Jul 13, 2011

tommays said:
Kind of hard to believe a 25 shoal keel boat could carry a 130 and full mainsail in 20 knots and only heel to 15 degrees

The whole lee helm thing with the 100% makes no sense at all as if your overpowered and setup correctly you should always have weather helm and might get some lee helm in light air

unless his old jib is so blown out that it has a belly like a spinnaker... I bought new sails this year, upgraded my genoa from a 110 to a 135, and I have alot less heel even in higher winds...

RobertLangdirect · Jul 13, 2011

Re: More Sail Equals Lwss Heal?

I think this can be explained by looking at air plane wings. A C-130 has a large thick wing. At low speeds it has a lot of lift but at higher sppeds, it loses its efficiancy and causes excessive drag. So much drag that regardless of the power you apply, you can't go super-sonic.

Take a 767, the wing is larger in nearly every aspect, but it is shaped to be "super critical." Thus, even at higher speeds nearing mach, the wing remains efficient (and saves fuel).

If you want to do the work, put some markers on both sails and take comparative pictures. You will probably see a dramatic shape difference.

FourPoints · Jul 13, 2011

RobertLangdirect said:
So much drag that regardless of the power you apply, you can't go super-sonic.

I think NASA has some recently retired solid fuel boosters that have enough power to push it supersonic

BroadReach · Jul 13, 2011

Mast Rake Basics

To Joe and his Catalina in the California,

I know from experience (race/sail a Hunter Legend 35) that head sails are rake specific. If you don't believe it try it.

Try sailing a 155 with a 110 rake set up..

What type of sail do you race with ??
What is your mast rake ??
What mast rake does Catalina recommend ??
I know what Hunter recommends and why.

As to the racer who changes sails during a race: if you look closely on most race boats the fore stay turnbuckle is exposed.

Broad Reach

tommays · Jul 13, 2011

Re: More Sail Equals Lwss Heal?

Around here it is against the rules to adjust the rig during a race other than the backstay

On everything i sail from a J24 on up the headstay is set at length X and not adjusted as i would love to see somebody on the bow turning a turnbuckle when the wind picks up and your changing down to a # 3

Morgan30 · Jul 13, 2011

Re: More Sail Equals Lwss Heal?

Sounds like you flew the Whomper on the Oday 25.

Actually, I see the Oday 25 having a shorter boom then an older boat like mine, thus the foward sail does alot more for the boat then mine. Maybe that is what you are experiencing. That the boat is designed with less main and more foward sail to get it going more effeciently.
Any thoughts?

Joe · Jul 13, 2011

BroadReach said:
To Joe and his Catalina in the California,

I know from experience (race/sail a Hunter Legend 35) that head sails are rake specific. If you don't believe it try it.

Do you have any other source of reference for this concept?

Try sailing a 155 with a 110 rake set up..

I do that all the time.... no problem.. when employing normal adjustments such as jib lead position, halyard tension and headstay tension (backstay).

What type of sail do you race with ??

Sails...... not sail... I have a set of upwind sails that can be interchanged for various conditions during a race. A symentrical spinnaker with pole, an A sail for reaching and a tall staysail. I never fool with the headstay turnbuckle while sailing.(nor do I know anyone that does)

What is your mast rake ??

3 or 4 inches

What mast rake does Catalina recommend ??

They recommend mast rake be set during the mast tuning phase when setting up the boat. Normally around 3-6 inches depending on the amount of weather helm you prefer.

I know what Hunter recommends and why.

For my Catalina 27? Perhaps a quote from the Hunter owner manual would be enlightening.

As to the racer who changes sails during a race: if you look closely on most race boats the fore stay turnbuckle is exposed.
Broad Reach

That's interesting, have you ever seen a crew adjusting it during a race? BTW almost all boats have the headstay turnbuckle exposed... so it can be adjusted. However, on many roller furling systems the turnbuckle is not easily accessed..... how do you explain that?... do all hunter's with roller furling have their turnbuckles exposed? And do all Hunter owners adjust their turnbuckles whenever they change sail sizes? Such as when reefing. Is this recommended by Hunter?

Pre setting the mast rake is for setting the vessel's overall weather helm. The headsail is somewhat irrelevent in this process because the weather helm can be tweaked with other, more convenient controls.

If you reef your roller furling headsail do you run to the bow to adjust the headstay tension, then go back to make another adjustment when you roll it out again? Would this effort be worthwhile considering the limitations imposed by the foil?

No....... it's much more prudent, and safe, to pre set the rake for overall helm attitude and use the myriad of other controls to balance the headsail and mainsail while sailing.

Joe · Jul 14, 2011

geehaw said:
Well Morgan Might have it right. All I know is that the boat was so cranky with the 100 jib I thought I would never learn to sail.Until I put the 130 on. I had the greatest time that day 3' to 4' seas boat was screaming along. The heeling didn't bother me because I felt in control for a change. I even spent some down below to get out of the rain for a bit. I did have the main eased a bit but I had the jib in pretty tight as I recall.

Get this book if you want to become a good sailor: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0684854201/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

"The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" by John Rousmaniere.

alexco38 · Jul 14, 2011

You might have overlooked the jib Fairlead position. It might have been placed (or not adjustable) too far back for the 100% but suits the 130%. If the Fiarlead is too far back the sail will be too flat to generate lift.

I have a cockpit adjustable fairlead system from Garhaurer, the best investment I ever made to the boat.

mark_swart · Jul 15, 2011

I used to have an O26 and it was also very cranky with the jib versus the genoa. Now I never tried to fly my entire 130 in 20 knot winds, but the boat always balanced and pointed much better with the bigger sail.
Geehaw the 25 and 26 are very similar - those boats also do really well under genoa alone if you are feeling lazy.