Attention On Deck

Mike B1026 · Sep 27, 2010

[Political comment removed]

capejt · Sep 27, 2010

ohhh boy!

I knew this would turn political.
Look, let's get real. The vast majority of us on this site DONT use gasoline in our boats. Most of us are diesel equiped so the ethanol thing is neither here nor there.
Doesn't this one belong in the "Off Topic" section?

Steve Dion · Sep 27, 2010

This may not affect our sailboats, but it is an issue with our outboards. There have been several posts about this over the past year. The fuel is causing problems with starting & running. They mis-judged the effects of the 10% ethanol I wonder what is going to happen with 15%?

My friend with a small Tohatsu had to replace his carb not long after it was out of warranty which was attributed to the fuel.

richk · Sep 28, 2010

what Steve said!

I have a small (3.5 hp) Nissan/Tohatsu (same engine.) Ever since using gas station gas (with ethanol) I've had problems. Had carb rebuilt twice. Even on an overnight trip if I don't completely run the gas out of the carb, it's hard to start. Lotsa fun with a dog who has to go and me in a dink w/wind and a half mile to shore in a 6 foot dink.

I can't afford a new outboard.

Rich

Steve Dion said:
This may not affect our sailboats, but it is an issue with our outboards. There have been several posts about this over the past year. The fuel is causing problems with starting & running. They mis-judged the effects of the 10% ethanol I wonder what is going to happen with 15%?

My friend with a small Tohatsu had to replace his carb not long after it was out of warranty which was attributed to the fuel.

Rick Webb · Sep 28, 2010

Lots of us Here Use Gasoline Here

Going from E10 to E15 is not a small thing it is a 50% increase in the amount of alcohol going into the gas. Aside from the stupid economics of the government using extortion to encourage its use not to mention what it has done to the price of tortillas there is plenty of evidence it is just dumb for boat owners to use it.

The Corn and the Agribusiness Lobby is vast and high as an elephant’s eye. If there ever was a perfect storm for getting a policy changed this is the year so do contact your congressman and tell them to cut it out.

Ross · Sep 28, 2010

The operating manual for Honda limits ethanol to 10 percent or methanol to 5 percent. There will be millions of industrial users affected by this change if it should take place. Every homeowner with a lawn mower or an emergency generator, every contractor with engine driven pressure washers, cement mixers, tillers, carts, pumps of all types, air compressors, farmers with engine driven elevators and other equipment.
If the word gets spread widely enough it will kill the bill in commitee.

Alan · Sep 28, 2010

Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. Put another way about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU.
And none of this takes into account the damage done nationally to these engines and the environment.

kpgraci · Sep 28, 2010

kpgraci said:
Call me a cinic

...or you could call me a cynic. Just don't call me baby.

Ross · Sep 28, 2010

Alan , your figures presume a complete waste of all secondary products from ethanol prodoction. the fermentation process produces carbon dioxide which is sold via pipeline to processors. The waste water is piped to aqua culture farms for fish production and the spent grain is fed to beef cattle in the adjoining feed lots. The manure waste from the feed lot is dried and packaged for sale as fertilizer. Some feed lots also have biogas production ability and sell the methane and the carbon dioxide from that operation and then process the depleited waste into fertilzer. It is more of an industry than it would seem to be from the outside.

rgranger · Sep 28, 2010

[Political commercial removed]

:2cool:

Ross · Sep 28, 2010

[Political content removed]

I believe that many aspects of our lives are going to get interesting as resources become scarce and alternatives are sought. Today the concern is ethanol in gasoline tomorrow it will be something else. When they took lead out of gasoline there were some who predicted the end of the world and civilzation as we knew it but very few people ever notcied the change and even fewer remember the change.

ggrizzard · Sep 28, 2010

Ross, Unleaded gas didn't ruin thousands of engines. My Merc (still in warranty) died and was denied a warranty fix as "Ethanol sludge in the carb isn't covered"
$200 out of pocket!

Rick Webb · Sep 28, 2010

As Big a Concern as Engine Damage is The Lessened Effeciency

My wife drives seventy two miles each way to work. When there we still options for not buying the ethanol she averaged 36MPG now with only the ethanol available she gets 32 MPG that is an eleven percent difference. Her car in fact has a sticker on it that says "No E15".

So we get a 10 percent difference in buying oil from somewhere else but I get 11 percent less efficiency we are now buying more oil from foreign sources. Not even mentioning the increases in cost for production and distribution.

Rick D · Sep 28, 2010

I'm probably not the friend Steve mentions, but I have had the same probs. I am well known as one who can field-strip the carb in a half hour. I am probably past that now in that I never leave much gas in, I drain the carb and I always use a fuel stabilizer. However, I still have probs with my classic car, snow blower and generator even with the stabilizer. Makes me CRAZY!

Ross · Sep 28, 2010

ggrizzard said:
Ross, Unleaded gas didn't ruin thousands of engines. My Merc (still in warranty) died and was denied a warranty fix as "Ethanol sludge in the carb isn't covered"
$200 out of pocket!

tetra ethyl lead poisoned thousands of people. That is beside the point howeve,r we can only succeed in this fight if enough affected people are willing to stand up and write to their legislators. This is not going to have adverse effects just on boaters. Everyone who uses gasoline will in some way be adversely affected. as I stated in an eariler post all of industry will be troubled by the problems caused by this change.

Brian D · Sep 29, 2010

Fellow boaters. This is an important issue. This issue concerns us boaters who use outboard as a mean of propulsion to get us in and out of harbors. This issue is about the fuel we use.

Let's keep the discussion to the fuel and not the politics. Else, we will have to move this thread, or edit it severely to remove any comments about the current administration. Consider this a friendly warning about political content.

Thanks

catsailor · Sep 29, 2010

Some E10 to E30 links I collected into a blog post:

http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/2010/04/epa-memo-on-e-10-and-phase-separation.html

As much as I dislike ethanol economics, I have learned to live well with it. I had some troubles at first, but I have solved those.
* No water leaks. If you have ANY rain or spray getting into the tank you will have separation. Check carefully.
* Close vents when not in use. Ethanol absorbs water from the air; when the air temperature drops, it will separate.
* Burning the gas through? I have heard 2 sides to that. If you burn it through instead of draining the carb, it is not truely empty, it is mostly empty. This may be worse for frequent users, as the remaining gas will be more likely to dry up and more likely to absorbe too much water. For those who don't use an engine for months at a time... expect troubles with any fuel. I have not drained a carb through in 25 years and have NEVER had a problem. However, I did have to clean several carbs that the POs had run dry every time; after cleaning I always left gas in them and have had no troubles. I think carb draining is incorrect urban legand; ever hear draining the carb in a car as common practice? The practice is counter to logic for frequent users (I try to run the engines 1x per month min, summer and winter).
* Sail a lot. Nothing is better than regular use.

As for hose and tank problems, there is no going back. I feel for those that were truely damaged.

Ross · Sep 29, 2010

Water in gasoline has been a problem for as long as there have been cars. There is a product on the market called "Dri-gas" the label say it contains alcohol. It comes in half pint bottles. A teaspoonful of water will stop a car with a carburator but the alcohol mixed with the water and allowed it through the system and it burned. Water in the fuel will allow bacteria growth. 190 proof alcohol will absorb water because it is hydroscopic. It won't be a problem if it is used in a timely manner or if the system is sealed air tight when not in use. We all know that gasoline doesn't keep forever and it never did. The old engines were more tolerant of their fuel needs and much more demanding on their maintanance needs. Spark plugs would never go a 100,000 miles on leaded gas.

Rick Webb · Sep 29, 2010

Alcohol Used as a Gas Dryer

There are eight pints in a gallon so in a sixteen gallon tank there are 128 pints. One pint of an alcohol based additive would amount to a .78 percent mixture in an average sixteen gallon tank somthing we all could live with.

10% is a long way from .78% and 15% is an even bigger difference.

Ethanol was a valid perhaps even noble venture but the economics of it are simply not there. We would be better off using that same corn to feed the hungry in the world or feed the cows they taste better anyway.