Attention On Deck

[RichH]

1 gallon of gasoline = 125,000 Btu
1 gallon of ethanol = 84,400 Btu
1 gallon of gasohol (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) = 120,900 Btu = 96% BTU of gasoline
1 gallon of (15% ethanol, 85% gasoline) = 106,300 Btu = 85% BTU of gasoline

15% EtOH is going to be VERY BAD.... will take 18% (1/.85) MORE fuel to equate to gasoline in BTU, and is going to be MORE EXPENSIVE, .... will cause a corresponding increase in FOOD, etc. prices.

10% EtOH is a fraud, 15% EtOH is going to be a VERY BIG FRAUD. One could 'piss' into gasoline and get the same diluted caloric result.

[Political comment removed]

 

[Ross]

There are eight pints in a gallon so in a sixteen gallon tank there are 128 pints. One pint of an alcohol based additive would amount to a .78 percent mixture in an average sixteen gallon tank somthing we all could live with.

10% is a long way from .78% and 15% is an even bigger difference.

Ethanol was a valid perhaps even noble venture but the economics of it are simply not there. We would be better off using that same corn to feed the hungry in the world or feed the cows they taste better anyway.

The corn that is use to make ethanol is fed to the cows. it is called distillers grain. it isn't going to raise the cost of food because corn is already treated as an industrial product with more uses that we have band width for here.

 

[Alan]

Bottom line here...............I think most of us agree that E10 was a terrible idea and E15 is going to be much worse.

Just make sure you let your representative know how you feel ASAP. Big business is going to overrule our choice but we have to stand up for our side anyway.

 

[kloudie1]

Exactly my reason for the posting, Alan ! Thanks !

 

[Brian D]

Sorry. But a few did not heed the warning. This thread has been cleansed of political contents. If you want to make a statement regarding politics, please move to the War Room.

Thanks!

Bed time for me, it is 22:48.

 

[dparilla]

Sorry. But a few did not heed the warning. This thread has been cleansed of political contents. If you want to make a statement regarding politics, please move to the War Room.

Thanks!

Bed time for me, it is 22:48.

Take That Pundits! If only it were that easy to remove politics from the news.

E10 is nasty to rubber, I can't imagine the rapidity with which E15 will deteriorate old hoses. JMTCW

 

[RichH]

Sorry. But a few did not heed the warning. This thread has been cleansed of political contents. If you want to make a statement regarding politics, please move to the War Room.

Thanks!

Bed time for me, it is 22:48.

and if youre being correct to remove political comments and overtones how come you left the leftist comments intact such as : :"Big business is going to overrule our choice but we have to stand up for our side anyway".

... especially when BIG GOVERNMENT was THE source of these needless changes

 

[Ross]

There are two ways this can go; industry can fix the fuel systems on the engines or the users can band together and apply their influence to changing the rules. Boat owners alone are not a large enough group to have the needed weight. All small engine users will have to report serious problems from using E10 gasoline before the rule makers sit up and take notice.
I drink an E6.5 beverage and get on quite well with it but gasoline makes me nauseous.
My lawnmower gets on very well with E10 gasoline and with having it left in the tank over the winter.

 

[Steve Dion]

One of the larger issues with the E10 in power boats was an issue with the fiberglass fuel tanks were leaching (melting) and that crap was getting into the fuel systems.

 

[Ross]

The resistance of polyester resins to various solvents.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chemical-resistance-polyester-d_784.html

 

[Steve Dion]

BoatUS earlier article.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp

 

[Brian D]

RichH... sorry, I missed a few. My connection out here is very slow. I will do my best to keep this thread about fuel only.

 

[Ross]

I was talking to my son up on Lake Champlain and asked him what he has heard concerning this issue. his take on it is a few fuel lines have one soft and needed replacing but no real big problems among the bass pros.

 

[Winkfish]

One of the larger issues with the E10 in power boats was an issue with the fiberglass fuel tanks were leaching (melting) and that crap was getting into the fuel systems.

That's what I understand as well. I think some metal (aluminum?) tanks use some type of varnish coating, and the E-10 dissolves that as well, gumming up the engine. My outboard is a 1985 Mercury, and the manual states it can handle up to 10% ethanol fuel. It is the components other than the motor which can cause problems. Other older engines are not so designed, and some of the non-metal components, like gaskets, can be ruined.

 

[FastOlson]

A Diesel Fuel Question

RichH... sorry, I missed a few. My connection out here is very slow. I will do my best to keep this thread about fuel only.

Good thread, at least the parts without politics. Thanks Brian, for all of your work.

Since there has been a lot of commentary about the newer chemicals and alcohol in road diesel, and further concern that the purer (?) version of it that we use, i.e. "off road" diesel being phased out at some near time frame...

Anyone know of some hard information about the effect of the road diesel in sailboats, where it's common for fuel to sit in tanks all winter? I keep hearing rumors about it "separating out" in storage.
We fill our tanks up in the fall to try to limit winter condensation, and that fuel sits there until May or April.

TIA

 

[RichH]

Anyone know of some hard information about the effect of the road diesel in sailboats, where it's common for fuel to sit in tanks all winter? I keep hearing rumors about it "separating out" in storage.
We fill our tanks up in the fall to try to limit winter condensation, and that fuel sits there until May or April.

TIA

10% Ethanol loaded diesel is becoming more and more 'available' (required) and the same phase separation problems are occurring with with these 'blends' as with gasoline 'blends'. Ethanol is an 'azeotropic fluid' meaning it is miscible with water and even if they use 90% (180 proof) ethanol in the blend, chemical equilibrium (with the moist atmosphere through the a tanks 'vent') will dictate that the tank contents will eventually become saturated with water. Once the water saturation of the tank fluid occurs and then gravimetric settling (drop out at the bottom) of the water occurs (phase separation) the tank contents will essentially become a 'chemical pump' due to varying thermal conditions as the thermal values of the fluid changes ..... constantly loading the tank contents with additional water from the atmosphere. Chemical equilibrium (water saturation) *will* happen as long as the tank is vented to the atmosphere and no matter 'how full the tank is'. Since boat fuel tanks are not very strong (vacuum rated) you cannot close the vent to prevent water saturation by 'equilibrium drive' .... or the tank can 'implode'.

Even that biological growth (due to the water content of the fuel) is retarded during winter conditions the BEST procedure is to totally EMPTY the tank for winter storage .... and burn that which was removed in your home oil burner. The chief contaminating fungal species (cladosporium resinae, etc.) do not need significant water to use fuel oil as a nutrient source. Filling a tank WILL NOT prevent the equilibrium 'shift' of water into oil (and the separated phase below the oil). 'Condensation' on tank walls only indicates that the oil HAS BECOME fully saturated with water. With NO oil in the tank there will be very little to no 'condensation' effect. For winter, empty the tank!

 

[Ross]

RichH , would a silica gel moisture vapor trap in the vent line help to prevent water buildup in the tank?

 

[RichH]

Ross ---
yes it would and I had one for many years on my 100 gal tank; however, the 'size' of trap (mass of the SiGel or Activated Alumina) required would need be quite large and would also need a secondary carbon-packed chamber to prevent oil adsorption in the SiGel ... so the gel can be 'regenerated'. Silica Gel cant be 'heat regenerated' if there is oil vapor also adsorbed in the gel; regeneration is 'baking' in 350 deg. for 8 hrs.

In a practical and economic sense its ultimately better to simply drain the tank. I keep very little oil in my tank over the winter (when Im not traveling) and simply 'recirculate polish' the oil through a filter set containing a 'water absorbing starch' prior to spring 'commissioning'.

An empty tank is cheap and simple to do, ... and vastly more economical overall. Plus, its easier to do the routine maintenance tank cleaning if its already empty.

;-)