One more "MINOR" problem found

[sailaway78]

Thought I had all the problems found, and all the fixes figured out. This morning installed a new cutlass bearing. Not really needed, but the boat was out of the water, and the rudder was off, which of course is necessary to pull the shaft. Not going to miss the opportunity to keep from having repeat this little exercise again in the forseeable future. Stuck the shaft back in, and noticed the shaft log was paper thin on the bottom.:cussing: Apparently a motor mount has failed, or moved or something. Installed a new dripless seal not quite two years ago, and didn't notice anything at that time. The shaft log clearance is pretty snug, and the log pretty thin. So now I have to do something with the shaft log. It is 1 & 1/2" OD, and my thought is to slide a piece of 1 & 1/2" schedule 40 PVC down over it, with LOTS of 5200. Will have to change the bellow, and do whatever with the motor mount and alignment, but is the best I can come up with so far. Anyone have any better ideas, or am I nuts to try this. If your gonna tell me I'm nuts, then have a better idea.

 

[thereisabelle]

not sure i follow.. is the pvc intended to be a load bearing material? not a good choice. if there's going to be rotation and force, a plastic like uhmw or delrin might last longer. what's the shaft log material now? jimbob

 

[tommays]

Well

As mine failed and almost sank the boat from the same issue NOT really a good idea

 

[SamLust]

I would not use sched 40 anywhere near the waterline. I have seen too much sched 40 shatter for no good reason. The sacual shaft tube on my Hunter 33 is a bronze gizmo bolted onto a flat abuttment molded into the hull. I assumed seidleman would have used the same arrangement simply due to the fact that he tagged his materials orders on with Hunter's orders to gain volume discounts. (Ever wonder why the rails, hatches, ports and such on Seidlemans look so much like Hunters")

I take it you are not talking about wearing through a bronze fitting? This, by the way, is what I have been talking about when I've posted about algning the entire propulsion system. engine, shaft, shaft tube, and cutless.

If the tube is all glass I would start looking at some glass work as Tommays has suggested

 

[Ross]

Is the wear just at the inboard end of the tube? I made a new rudder shaft tube by wrapping waxed paper around a form the same diameter as the rudder post and building glass on that. When it cured I had a glass tube that was a close fit on my rudder post. I trimmed the ends and sanded off the bumps.
You could make a bushing to take up the wear and slip that into the stern tube and bed it with filled resin.

 

[kloudie1]

Sounds like a reasonable plan, Phil. The remaining tube (upper 90%) is plenty strong enough to carry the small torque from the seal face contact.The pipe is a close slip fit onto the tube?? . if ya can find a new bellows that matches the new OD of the PVC, should be fine.. I'd use epoxy (West G-flex) just so I'd not have to wait 4-5 days to get it set. The PVC won't see any UV and it will be in cool water .. should last a LONG time.. I don't think I'd put a close clearance bushing there in teh stern tube because it would be a hard point that would load the tube when the engine bounces.. A packing is mounted in a flex section, so it doesn't load the tube the same way as a bushing might. A bronze bush replacing the PVC might be Ok but I'd opt for the no-corrode PVC, myself.

 

[kenn]

I would do the PVC fix as an emergency measure mid-voyage, but the right repair is to either build up the tube again with glass cloth and epoxy (and fix the alignment issue), or replace the tube like tommays did.

I also agree that there shouldn't be any bushing jammed into the tube. Engine movement would fatigue or fracture the tube, and then you have a BIG problem.

 

[sailaway78]

Here's what I got

The shaft log is just worn down on the forward, engine, side of the log for about 4". The log is glass, about 1-1/4 ID, and OD is 1-1/2". Wall thickness is not much. Approx 1/8". Not structural or load bearing. It sits down in a recess, that is very tight. If there was any way to get down under it, I would just do some glass work, but can just barely reach one finger under it to feel the bottom of the tube. Considered the possibility of wrapping it in glass but there is no way to know what you got on the bottom side. Can't even get a mechanics mirror in there to see much of it. I cut a piece of 1-1/2" schedule 40 pvc that fits over the tube, loose fit, and it looks pretty good. I know that 5200 will stick to this pretty good, and as I said, the tube is not cracked but just tissue paper thin for the forward 4" or so. I can get about a 6" piece of pipe on there. I think that a 1-1/4" cutlass bearing would go into the tube, and thought about using some epoxy and inserting a cutlass bearing in it, but not too sure about that method either. Keep the ideas and comments coming. All are welcome.

 

[Ross]

Re: Here's what I got

The P-L Premium urethane caulks are practically equal to 5200 . I just had a new roof put on my house and the chimney flashing that I had redone about 6 years ago and sealed with P-L Premium was imposible to tear apart at the joints. P-L cures in 2 days and cost less than half the price of 5200.

 

[jfmid]

Hello Nice & Easy,
Any chance you could post some pics so that we could see what you're descibing better?? I am a little confused as to the names of the parts being discussed and wonder where I could go to learn more about this.
Tommays' pics are clear as day but I'm admitting my ignorance as to what is what. This seems to be something that I should be checking on regularly and want to learn what it is I'm seeing.

 

[sailaway78]

More answers

Have the final solution, I hope. Found some fairly thin wall fiberglass tubing thats not overly expensive. Is made for marine exhaust use. So gonna clean up the shaft log real good, cut the fiberglass tube to fit, and slide it over the existing log with all the G flex I can manage to get in there. Have ordered a new bellow with a 2" diameter, which should do the trick. Kloudie is correct in that there is no load on there, just has to hold the bellow and keep the water out. Where it comes through the hull is solid and has no damage of any kind, Just on the front end where the bellow attaches. I really thing that the schedule 40 PVC would have been fine, but do feel a little better about using the fiberglass tube. As for photos, not sure, but will give it a try. The only way in there is through a hole I cut in the bulkhead in the quarter berth. Have to lay on my right side, and mostly have to work with one hand. With both arms in there, I can only work laying on my stomach, cause the hole is smaller than my shoulders are wide. Still hoping to get the boat splashed by the end of next week, but it is not for sure. Gonna take a day off tomorrow, and go fishing. This heat is just a killer on an old man.

 

[woodster]

Have the final solution, I hope. Found some fairly thin wall fiberglass tubing thats not overly expensive. Is made for marine exhaust use. So gonna clean up the shaft log real good, cut the fiberglass tube to fit, and slide it over the existing log with all the G flex I can manage to get in there. Have ordered a new bellow with a 2" diameter, which should do the trick. Kloudie is correct in that there is no load on there, just has to hold the bellow and keep the water out. Where it comes through the hull is solid and has no damage of any kind, Just on the front end where the bellow attaches. I really thing that the schedule 40 PVC would have been fine, but do feel a little better about using the fiberglass tube. As for photos, not sure, but will give it a try. The only way in there is through a hole I cut in the bulkhead in the quarter berth. Have to lay on my right side, and mostly have to work with one hand. With both arms in there, I can only work laying on my stomach, cause the hole is smaller than my shoulders are wide. Still hoping to get the boat splashed by the end of next week, but it is not for sure. Gonna take a day off tomorrow, and go fishing. This heat is just a killer on an old man.

man i am glad that you did it that way with the fiberglass tube collar ...after all it worked for several decades on the original one and would have work a lot longer if the engine mount had not failed ...are your mounts mounted with leg screws or ar they bolted to angles bolted to the stringers ....on my s-2 i am going to replace the leg screws with through bolts through the stringers after reinforcing the old stuff with new glass rod material....

and i hope that you have gotten to the bottom of pandoras box at this time ....good luck ..

regards

woody

 

[woodster]

The P-L Premium urethane caulks are practically equal to 5200 . I just had a new roof put on my house and the chimney flashing that I had redone about 6 years ago and sealed with P-L Premium was imposible to tear apart at the joints. P-L cures in 2 days and cost less than half the price of 5200.

that is very good stuff Ross only thing is when i get it on my hands i use WD-40 to clean it off asap because it will leave a birth mark on you where ever it touches and last for about 7 to 9 days lol

 

[zeehag]

"birth marks"=sign ye own a boat, do your own work and havent a lot of dough to throw around----should be worn with pride lol......


after phillip finishes this repair of his shaft log , and allis completed in louseyanny, phillip is spozed tocome here for my bost and we will do the same thing here---if it is appropriate for my kind of mayhem--formosas are different ..LOL.....every one is different , also--just a few things are identical, or nearly so, in the marque..LOL...

 

[sailaway78]

Motor mount bolts

Woodster,
The motor mounts are attached to the stringers with lag bolts. I have inspected them, and appear to be in good shape, and were all tight. I think I am going to replace all of them with some an inch or so longer, just for in case. And I certainly hope I am about to the bottom of Pandoras box. My arms are about at the length of their reach.

 

[zeehag]

if you exteend the length of the motor mounts, would th shaft make contact with anything ?? sometimes lengthening stuff just makes a new place of destruction--makes angles different--will it affect the coupler -- would it affect anything else or is it a "safe" modification?????? dont wanna see ye have to redo something that should hopefully keep ye out of the yard for a few yrs....

 

[woodster]

if you exteend the length of the motor mounts, would th shaft make contact with anything ?? sometimes lengthening stuff just makes a new place of destruction--makes angles different--will it affect the coupler -- would it affect anything else or is it a "safe" modification?????? dont wanna see ye have to redo something that should hopefully keep ye out of the yard for a few yrs....

i think what he is saying... zee... is that the stringers are sound and he is going to use longer lag screws to go deeper in to the stringers ..whitch makes good sense as it will anchor the mounts in new material down deeper.....

regards

woody

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

One shaft-log improvement

If possible I would replace the whole lousy shaft log. One trick I only found out from others (and after all my years in the boatbuilding business this is embarrassing) is to install the longest possible shaft log in order to move the coupling and clamps as far forward as possible, thus avoiding much of the nightmare of maintaining and replacing something way down in the tightest corner of the boat. So we have been seeing shaft logs that terminate barely 6" down the shaft from the coupling, which just enough room to loosen the coupling bolts. The hose clamps are right at hand; and cooling-water fitting is closer to the eye and hands as well.

The modern mentality is to use extruded/machined G10 tubes for shaft logs. These require virtually no maintenance and bond extremely well with epoxy and fiberglass. Build up the attachment bond, at the hull, using plenty of epoxy and filler (as in Tommay's 3rd picture above) and trim the end off when you're ready to install the shaft again. I was impressed the first time I saw this on the 2008 Cherubini 44 and remain blown-away by the simplicity. And the piece of G10 cost about $66 for a 6-ft piece.

The other CY technique is to install a rather large, thick, and somewhat expensive UHMW bearing at the end of the shaft log. It's beautiful and equally simplistic, just not very cheap (about $300 for the bearing). But UHMW's magic is that even if you get it a little out of alignment it will gently wear itself in. Of course it will still leak; but all stuffing-boxes do and with G10 and UHMW you won't have metallic corrosion to deal with.

 

[zeehag]

is not the purpose of the shaft log to lube the shaft as it turns with the cutlass bearing? if so, why close it off to incoming water? or am i missing something?
the addition of a bearing at the end of the shaft log would keep the water out of the log,would it not? would not the modification require some additional means of adding water to the shaft so it doesnt heat up and get scored?

..i am not sure of the modern mentality as far as fixing of older boats is concerned--some of the new technologies do not work with the older boats...not without changing out many things and lots of dollars....

woody--he is going to raise the engine a slight bit, as i understand it, --about 1/4 inch so it sits where it used to sit..is an old boat and some compression has set in..so he wants to rid the boat of that so there is no more rubbing on the shaft log, as i understand the problem. i can understand that as i have seen the inside of the places of which he speaks--i am merely concerned the physics is correct so the boat doesnt need emergency haulout at a later date..especially if i am sailing with him...lol. ........

phillip--when you come out here--please leave pandora and her box at home with your sister or someone else, ok!!?? got enough to do without pandora around lol....:dance:.

 

[thereisabelle]

sounds like it all boils down to acess.if you can't get there with room to work you have to improvise.as i try and visualize the drive it goes, coupling to tranny,shaft runs aft to the shaft seal which it clamped to the protruding shaft log. from there the shaft goes thru the hull and to a cutless bearing ending at the prop.
on the irwin we have a stuffing box. this minimizes but never stops water completley.it also lets water lubericate the packing.your seal is a bellows type? clamped on both shaft and inside protrusion of the shaft log? i think this is a dripless mechanical seal, correct?
the clearance between shaft and shaft log should be minimal, .010 - .015". would allow water to reach the seal... my cocern would be in the material being stong enough to support the clamping pressure without deforming, and bearing quality to absorb the ocasional flex in the shaft due to objects in the water," trip ender's " it does'nt take much to bend a shaft. pvc just doesn't seem to fit the bill. Dixie bearing co. stocks all sizes of bearing materials,designed to run in different mediums. my next cocern would be installing without getting the bedding mixture between shaft and bushing. this seems like an injection delima. with the shaft fastened at each end,a grease gun filled with the g flex or whatever, could be forced thru a long needle tube to completley incase the log to the hull. this would probably mean sacrificeing a grease gun... but would allow cleaning off each end." not a better idea, just another idea." jimbob