Just have to ask. Aybody ever blow half your ballast out on a downwind run in light air?

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Jun 30, 2007
277
Macgregor - Spring Creek, FL
I've got a 26S and I find it pleasingly fast but, not that I have a need for speed, I was wondering has anyone out there tried to find more by blowing about half your ballast out on a downwind run in light air? If the air is light, seems to me it might not be too dangerous and might add some speed.:)
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
I've got a 26S and I find it pleasingly fast but, not that I have a need for speed, I was wondering has anyone out there tried to find more by blowing about half your ballast out on a downwind run in light air? If the air is light, seems to me it might not be too dangerous and might add some speed.:)
I wouldn't do it, especially around here where light air can turn into heavy air in about one minute. We went out once with friends and got out of sync with our normal procedures. We left the dock without filling the ballast tank. We were only about 1/4 mile out on the motor when I thought the boat felt terrible and realize the ballast tank wasn't full. We stopped and filled it immediately.

I just don't think the risks outweigh any slight advantage that might be gained. If you do it I would like to here the before and after speeds in the same wind/course.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

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Jun 3, 2004
1,863
Macgregor 25 So. Cal.
What happens when 600#(the remaining bllast) sloshes to the low side?

I haven't sailed that way but was on a S that was being filled while motoring and just a small movement of the rudder caused the boat to heel a lot untill the tank was full.
 
Apr 30, 2006
610
Macgregor 26s Kemah, TX
It seems to me that with the ballast tank half full, the water in the tank will do no good until the boat is heeled enough to put the water on the "high side." I would expect the boat to be very tender until it's heeled over a lot. That could be compensated for at least to some extent by some "railbirds" sitting on the high side.
I would guess that this is common when these boats are raced, especially in light or even moderate air.
This is a picture of some railbirds on my cousin's boat during a race.
 

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Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
Early sailing experimentation on my 26D included sailing with no water ballast and no daggerboard down. My boat is very rolly that way, but due nto spillage of air as the boat rolls over, the amount of roll does not constitute a water-in-the-cockpit event.

Likewise, on a 26M I recently sailed on: with no water ballast, I went to the side shrouds and leaned out as far as my 200 lbs would go--the resultant heeling moment was less than we subsequently experience sailing WITH water ballast that day.

I would say that our hulls have some stability without water ballast.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
What happens when 600#(the remaining bllast) sloshes to the low side?.............
Hopefully this won't spill over onto the Ask All Sailors forum.......

http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=114939

......where there was an attempt to discredit water ballast boats.

I would say that some water in the tank might help the overall stability of the boat by giving it mass, but not help the righting moment as that water (more importantly it's weight) would not be lifted as the boat heels over. The water would just go to the low side of the boat which would now be the boat's bottom and not do anything to help right the boat.

Of course this is irrelevant to the question that was asked, "downwind run", where the boat should not be heeling much at all. It doesn't surprise me at all that John has done this :dance:. Since he is intrigued with getting the last 1/4 knot out of his Mac and seems to have no fear ;) it is to be expected that he would try about anything :).

If our boat didn't have a ton of items added, attached to it and I was out without Ruth, who doesn't swim, I'd like to really push the boat myself like John and Walt and others have done. Looks like fun to me. I don't think I would do it loaded down for a trip and full of coolers and ice.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
A few years ago John posted some pictures using a trapeze on his D... not a bad idea.. Maybe a good place to put my kid if he ever complains about being bored.

I'm probably not going to sail without ballast..

but it seems that JDK and myself are the poster children for "dangerous" sailing with the pop top up (look at JDK's avatar..;))


 
Jun 16, 2004
203
- - -
we did it...but not for long. we tried beam reach/upwind from the dock. quickly dropped sails and let ballast fill(never thought about downwind...I bet it would work. with the right amount of railmeat....could make the boat very competative in a race I would think. tacking would be a tricky accomplishment!
 

JDK

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Jul 12, 2007
213
Mac 26D 1988 New Port Richey, Fl
We never let ballast out unless we are heading to the ramp, mostly because I don't like to hold the air pump over the vent hole long enough. Our boat will drain ballast water if we motor with the valve open, but I'm not sure we could get it more than half empty that way. Not sure why, but our other D that Dan Nease now owns would virtually empty the ballast tank when motoring with the valve open.

The last 1/4 knot is important to us too, but I was always afraid if I dumped ballast on a leg that was downwind, I'd not be able to replace it for the rest of the race, where it surely would be needed! Maybe it's a sign I'm getting old and lazy...

I'm attaching a picture of a race where we're reefed to the max and running a small jib, yet very glad that the plug seals in the ballast tank. I hadn't noticed before, Walt, but it looks like it was windy enough for us to put the pop-top down that day!

thx
JDK
 

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O

oreana1234

I gotta say that the trapeze thing worked great. It's OK when the water is warm, but when I hang out on the shrouds and the water is deadly cold, I worry about what would happen....

My new 1/4 knot project is my cutter rig. I just got done tuning the rig with the bowsprite installed. My friend Joel gave me an ancient genoa off of an unknown boat that I cut down to go from the sprite to the masthead, and it blankets the entire boat (about 145%). It will create incredible power, and I hope that it willl be thrust and not heel. I am using a 100% jib on the inner stay (what is the normal forestay) to funnel the air onto the main.

Last year, I installed a fresh water tank under the vee berth, I figure about 220 lbs low forward, and on the centerline. I want the weight to help counteract the huge genoa, but I can dumo it if it is a light day.

The thing about knockdowns is that I have never gotten water to come over the coamings, no matter how much I have abused my boat. Needless to say, pop top up or down, I've never gotten water below. Sure it looks bad, and it throws everything all over the place, but recovery is sure and quick. I was on an Aquarius we heeled over, and I really thought I was going to abondon ship, the wave of water coming into the cockpit was over a foot thick. My son was standing on the top of the cabin at that time, he was about 10 years old, he looked me in the eye and said, "time to go Dad?". We got the boat back on its feet but I was laughing so hard it was hard to talk. A lot of water had run down the companionway as well and we had to clean it up. I mention this because I have never experienced anything like it on my water ballast boat, never.

I am not going looking for an arguement, but water ballast is the best kind of arrangement for me, to each his own. I am in the process of making a cover on a Hunter 23.5 and it has a centerboard AND water ballast. All of the highest performance sailboats (Volvo class) use water ballast etc etc etc
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country


Neat picture. From the way the boat is sitting in the bow wave and stern wave you must of been getting close to hull speed.

On hull speed there is an interesting description of it here that seems to say that some displacement hulls can exceed it......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_speed

I like the part where they say "It (hull speed) is still used by amateurs in relation to traditional displacement hulls."

Yep I'm an amateur for sure. Using their values I get the hull speed for our S and D's at 6.5 to 7.3 knots in "amateurish terms". I've seen the 6.5 to 6.8 before, but never over 7.

Keep the heeling pictures coming. Ruth wants to see them to build up some courage for when we get to go out again. She feels they are reassuring. I tell her that I'm sure that a roller coaster won't come off the tracks, but that still doesn't stop it from scaring the he** out of me.

Also John all of your comments in the last post were reassuring to her also, but I have to keep reminding her that we don't push the boat like you do, so the chances of us experiencing all of the fun knock downs are less likely to happen.

c ya,

Hoping to never get knocked down Sum and Ruth

P.S......but if we do we will know that we will survive it thanks to you guys!!

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 
Jun 5, 2004
997
Macgregor 26D Boise
At Yellowstone, I sailed at 9 knots sustained with gusts over that speed, on a DDW run. We also rounded up from DDW because I did not have a headsail up. Read from GPS. Surfing I guess, but it seemed like we were overtaking the wave trains. My family was freaking out, and so was I. I set course for one of the islands in the middle of the lake, turned up in the lee of the island and coasted up to a sandy beach in still air, like I meant to do that all along.
 

JDK

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Jul 12, 2007
213
Mac 26D 1988 New Port Richey, Fl
I think it's amazing that our fastest speeds have been while reefed and flopping all over the place as far as keeping a tight set of sail and full of air. The attached pic is from another race in heavy wind (for our boat and skills, anyway).

John, I've seen 7.0 once on the log from the race in the picture, but that's it. I think if I'd have seen 9 I might have messed myself...especially on a DDW run. That's where we struggle for some reason, having broken two rudders in that manner. Not quite sure what we're doing wrong.

Sum, how do you get the pictures big like that? I wanna post like the smart guys!

thx
JDK
 

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May 4, 2005
4,062
Macgregor 26d Ft Lauderdale, Fl
I got a pic of the gps doing 7.0, and was in the 6.8-7.3 range most of that day, doing a broad reach with jib and main. (easy sailing)

the next day, I had some low 8's but was way too busy to take a picture, plus had some current help.

9 knts on a lake is screaming!




 
Jun 1, 2009
19
Macgregor 26D Mayfield Yacht Club, NY
Walt how high is your boom?

Walt from the picture of you sailing with your poptop up it looks like your boom on your S is about 12" above your poptop? I have a D and my boom is about 3" above my poptop when it is up. Is it the angle or did you raise your boom? Jon
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Walt from the picture of you sailing with your poptop up it looks like your boom on your S is about 12" above your poptop? I have a D and my boom is about 3" above my poptop when it is up. Is it the angle or did you raise your boom? Jon
I don't think his pop-top was all the way up. When mine is all the way up it attaches to the mast and in that picture it is way behind the mast,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
.........Sum, how do you get the pictures big like that? I wanna post like the smart guys! thx JDK
This might not be easy and will be a little convoluted, but if you are smart enough to sail that fast then you are smart enough to do it :)....and if not you can always blame it on the teacher ;).

First putting the picture in your post depends where the picture is. It is either going to be already on the Internet on your site or someone else's. The other situation, which I think might be yours, is that the picture is on your computer.

Lets do the situation where the picture is on the Internet either on a site you visit our your site. Start your post and get to where you want the picture. Then open a second window and go to the site where the picture is.

1. Right click on the picture. That will open a window with a menu.

2. Go to the bottom of the window and click on "properties". That will open another window.

3. Go to the Address (URL) section. To the right of it is the web address of the picture. Drag over all of it noting that it might be more than one line long. Drag down and to the end of it.

4. Right click on the highlighted area and when the next window comes up click on "copy".

5. Now go back to your post and click on the "insert image" icon above the message window to the left of "You Tube" icon.

6. Drag across the "http://" highlighting it and then "right click" on the highlighted part and click on "paste" in the new window and the picture address that you copied off of the other site will be inserted.

7. Click "OK" and you are done and the picture is in the post.

Now the picture will only be as large as it was on the other site. In the instance of the second picture you posted above here is what it looks like when I do what I just described.



Note that it is smaller than the other picture I posted of yours. Most Likely because where you got them from they were different sizes. What I posted above sounds like a lot, but it is fast once you do it a time or two. I just posted the above picture in less than 15 seconds.

====================================

OK now what if the picture is on your computer and not on the Internet.

Start your post like normal. When you want to put a full-size picture in use the "attachment" option above the message window (the camera icon) and attach the picture to the post. This will upload the picture from your computer onto the site.

Now that you attached it go to the "Preview Post" command under the message window and click on that. You will see your post with the attachment at the bottom of it. Click on the "attachment" and it will open another window with the photo full size. Now that it is full size you can copy it into the post like I told you in "Part I" of this above.

I did that with the following picture as I'm typing these instructions.



It isn't that hard once you do it a couple times. Don't forget that to do an attachment there are sizes that will be allowed.

Good luck and ask questions if this isn't clear. I don't want the teacher to be blamed for any failure :redface:.

c ya,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

Mac Links
 

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Sumner

.
Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
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