Heard on the radio today

[Franklin]

Tanker departing Portland, Tanker departing Portland, this is the sailboat about a mile ahead. Is there anything we can do to make things easier here?

Sailboat hailing tanker. Yes, do an immediate "U" turn. DO NOT CROSS MY BOW! Go down my port side and pass under my stern. Please do a "U" turn RIGHT NOW! Tanker Energy Hegemony standing by on 16.

(Name changed because I was laughing too hard to remember it.)

Sounds to me like this tanker captain has an attitude problem and nothing he said makes sense!!!!!

If the sailboat is going to cross his path a mile ahead, then he will be way out of the way when the tanker gets there, unless of course he hasn't gotten to the crossing yet and in that case, NO NEED FOR A U TURN!!!!!!!

Tanker is just an *******!!!! And I've met many of them like the ones that like to blind sailboaters by putting that big spotlight on them and keeping it on them.

 

[Roger Long]

This pre-supposes that the evasion maneuver is obvious.

Agreed. I was too far away to see the sailboat but the tanker appeared to be in the part of the aproaches where you can pretty much treat these ships the way you would a train. Judging from the tanker's radio response, that's the way he saw the situation as well.

Using the radio was one of the things I like most about flying but it's a totally different environment. I hardly ever talk to other vessels up here although I know that there are other geographical situations and conditions where I would find it more useful. Incidentally, the Portland Pilots are very good about the Security calls and there is never any mystery about where the big ships are going if you pay attention.

 

[tsmwebb]

...the tanker appeared to be in the part of the aproaches where you can pretty much treat these ships the way you would a train. Judging from the tanker's radio response, that's the way he saw the situation as well. ...

Very good. I'm pretty sure you're completely right about this case. And I've heard some pretty hilarious radio chatter. Once when the QE II was coming into Honolulu harbor the skipper gave the coasties (who couldn't decide if they wanted him to heave to or not and waited until he was in the channel to decide they did) a dressing down in his deep slow brogue that pretty much incapacitated everyone who heard it... I wish I could do it justice in type -- I'm tearing up just thinking of it again...

My point, in as much as I ever really had one, is that it is probably better not to laugh too hard at folks who are attempting to do the correct thing on the radio in much the same way that it isn't great form to laugh at folks wearing PFDs even if they do look pretty silly...

--Tom.

 

[Roger Long]

Sounds to me like this tanker captain has an attitude problem and nothing he said makes sense!!!!!

I disagree completely. The sailboat asked what he could do. Well, since he was asking, a "U" turn would confirm that the sailboat the tanker was looking at was indeed the one that was calling. I'm sure he wouldn't have asked for a "U" turn that would require the sailboat to recross is bow. A close bow crossing in Maine is more risky than many places because of the possibility of getting hung up on a lobster pot. The ones that get their buoys chopped up (especially likely in channels) are sometimes invisible below the surface.

If the sailboat really wants to make life easy for the tanker, he shouldn't be in the channel at all. He asked, the tanker told him.

 

[RikHall]

Ahoy

We have and use our radar, AIS and our VHF. We just brought our 34 foot saliboat home 1002 nautical miles. On three occasions my AIS told me (suggested) that I would be passing a large vessel at a CPA (closest point of approach) that was much smaller than my comfort level. On two of the occasions I hailed the much larger vessel to tell them that I was the sailboat 20 degrees on their port bow, that I had visual and electronic contact and that I would pass astern of them. Both replied immediately and thanked me for my call.

It is my understanding that the big professionals do not like surprises and that for them to know I am not going to do anything stupid, that I am actually at the helm and see them, for them, is a bonus, not a hassle.

We sail a lot in the Bay of Fundy, up the coast from Maine, and we have a government agency very similar to the air traffic controllers - it is called Fundy Traffic. For half of the Bay they monitor CH14 and for half CH 12. The chart "Approaches to the Bay of Fundy" has check points and many boaters do not take advantage of this free service. When I approach the first check point I call and give them our name, our destination and our ETA. No chit chat - just the salient facts. They reply with any know traffic and which check point to next call in from.

On one trip our destination was the Market Square wharfs right downtown Saint John. (a busy working harbour) We checked in at every point they said and were tied up at the wharf, making coffee and got a call to see if we were at the wharf yet. They were just checking - and we liked that. We had forgotten to tell them we had arrived. Sort of the airplane's equivalent to closing a flight plan. With the big freighters, cruise ships and tankers coming and going - we think it is government money well spent. We like Fundy Traffic!

Just my 2 cents worth.

Rik

 

[Franklin]

I disagree completely.

You obviously didn't understand my post. If the two are on a collision course but the sailboat is a mile away, just a little correction in course is all that is needed, or no correction all but speed....DEFINATELY NOT A U TURN. Suggesting the sailboat make a U turn is just a bad attitude.

 

[Ross]

Franklin, Most sailboaters will give a commercial skipper a bad attitude. You should listen to the stories told by tugboat captains up here on the river.

 

[Roger Long]

You obviously didn't understand my post.

No, I did. You have to remember that the tanker officer wasn't talking to you who obviously knows how to handle this situation. He has no idea of the competence of the person calling. Put yourself in your position, a sailboat that you can see to be on a course with a CPA at least well below your comfort level calls up offering to give up stand on status that he actually doesn't have (the sailboat radio call wasn't very clear but that's how I understood it.) You're possibly not 100% sure that the sailboat you are looking at is the one calling (I couldn't see detail of the area but there were a lot of boats out). He's offered to do whatever will make your life easier, why not ask for the most conservative and definitive action?

Now, if I had heard a tanker call up out of the blue and insist that a boat do a "U" turn instead of just remaining clear, I would be inclined to agree with you.

 

[tsmwebb]

Franklin, Most sailboaters will give a commercial skipper a bad attitude. You should listen to the stories told by tugboat captains up here on the river.

That's a pretty broad statement. I'm sure it depends a bit on where you are. But, AFIK, most sailboaters and most commercial skippers act with care and good will most of the time and mostly avoid any problems. I know some tugboat skippers, too. And, while I enjoy their yarns I wouldn't assume they were letting the facts get in the way of a good story. And, very occasionally, commercial skippers do stupid things and cause problems in their own right. They are only human.

--Tom.

 

[Ross]

That's a pretty broad statement. I'm sure it depends a bit on where you are. But, AFIK, most sailboaters and most commercial skippers act with care and good will most of the time and mostly avoid any problems. I know some tugboat skippers, too. And, while I enjoy their yarns I wouldn't assume they were letting the facts get in the way of a good story. And, very occasionally, commercial skippers do stupid things and cause problems in their own right. They are only human.

--Tom.

Amend "Most" to read "Many" and I will stand by the rest of my statement.

 

[tsmwebb]

Amend "Most" to read "Many" and I will stand by the rest of my statement.

Okay. I'm not going to argue against your local knowledge. IME, there are lots of places where "many" would more accurately be replaced by "a few". YMMV.

Somehow this all reminds me of a very sad story where a man died and a yacht was lost in a collision between a tow and the yacht. Profound incompetence was needed on both the tug and the yacht to bring it all about, but a simple radio call would almost certainly have avoided the whole tragedy. When in doubt, call.

http://www.msa.govt.nz/Publications...i-Toolka-T-012774-mnz-accident-report2001.pdf

--Tom.

 

[Ross]

I am inclined to think that incompetency on the water and on the highways is approximately the same. Many more car drivers are a hazard to the safety of the highway than are professioal truckers. By the same measure many more pleasure boaters are a menace than are commercial skippers.

 

[tsmwebb]

I am inclined to think that incompetency on the water and on the highways is approximately the same. Many more car drivers are a hazard to the safety of the highway than are professioal truckers. By the same measure many more pleasure boaters are a menace than are commercial skippers.

I'm inclined to think you're probably right...

However, it isn't safe to assume that just because an operator is commercial that he's competent. In the case I cited above two of the tug's crew were clearly incompetent -- didn't have an understanding of COLREGS, executed disastrously and one of them didn't even know how to drive the tug. When I took my captains license course about half the class was going for able in the tug fleet. Honestly, despite a 100% pass rate, not all of those men understood the material. And, it is hard to blame pleasure boaters for ships that run into bridges in SF Bay or well charted rocks in Prince William sound and the like. One whole session of that captains course was dedicated to marine disasters all caused exclusively by incompetent professionals. They're out there. Be defensive.

In the case that Roger reported that started all this, it seems likely that the sailboat skipper was doing something silly, but by calling the tanker he converted what might have been a life threatening situation to him and a PIA for the tanker into a safe pass... Competent skippers don't emerge fully formed. Just check out the "Darwin Awards" posts on this site. We all have to start somewhere. But, whatever the levels of competence of the parties involved, a radio call can quickly convert a confusing or dangerous situation into a simpler safer one. Ridiculing folks for making those calls could discourage people from making them. That would be a very bad thing for everyone involved.

--Tom.

 

[Franklin]

... Ridiculing folks for making those calls could discourage people from making them. That would be a very bad thing for everyone involved.
--Tom.

Very well said. The sailboat radio operator was just openning up communication in a very polite way with the tug and trying to be curtious. Not only do I find the tug radio operator's response un-helpful and insulting, I find Roger's thread to be harmful to the boating community by discouraging communication between sailboaters and tugs.

 

[SirWm]

I thought the original post was funny and I like Roger's sense of humor.

 

[NC-C320]

Sailboats and Ships

To me (I've been on the ships and the sailboats both a few times), it's simple. Sailboats/pleasure boaters stay out of the way of the big commercial ships/boats, and if you are crossing, do so under the ship's stern well clear of the ship. This is a sailboat forum, and it seems some are down on the ships, but I think that a good many sailboaters are jerks in thinking they are going to play right of way games on a 25-30 ft. sailboat with a 500-600 ft. ship. It's simple, just stay out of the way. If you can contact him by radio, fine, but don't use that as an excuse to even come close to these guys. If it goes bad, guess who is going to get the bad end of the deal. And if you have to take evasive action at 4-5 kts. vs. his closing at 15-20 kts. you may well not make it. If you stay well clear, you don't have to worry if the ship handler is competent or not, or whether he is keeping proper lookout.

 

[Roger Long]

I find Roger's thread to be harmful to the boating community by discouraging communication between sailboaters and tugs.

I find the idea that the "boating community" is paying sufficient attention for me to harm it very flattering

I didn't intend to promote the idea that communication between recreational and commercial traffic should be discouraged and I don't promote that idea, *when it is needed*. Unnecessary communication should be discouraged, however, and a tanker in a fairway it can't deviate from and a sailboat crossing it falls in that category as far as I'm concerned. If everybody that tanker passed on its way out called to ask what they should do or even just assure him that they would stay out of the channel, the airwaves would be so congested as to create a safety hazard. It's often that way in aviation because everyone is required to make calls at specific points and airport frequencies overlap.

 

[Hermit Scott]

I wish we were talking about this in a bar somewhere. It's hard to get all the rhetorical info just in print.
Is the tug boat captain suggesting that the sailboat doesn't belong in the channel?
Roger-what would you have done differently than the operator of the sailboat? A mile seems a pretty good distance in a channel for any type of manuver.
When he says "don't cross my bow" does he mean don't cross too close to my bow?

If they were a mile away presumably heading toward each other, wouldn't it be a pretty easy move to go to the other side of the channel "crossing the bow" of the other boat?

 

[CarlN]

I'm just surprised at an ambiguous term like "U-turn" from a professional seaman.

About two hours after I left Norfolk years ago, I heard a more professional exchange over the VHF.

"This is the United States Warship Carl Vinson to the white sailboat on my port bow. What are your intentions - over"

Panicky sounding woman (I'd panic too if a 1000 foot aircraft carrier was aimed at my stern): "This is the white sailboat, wha' whattt should we do"

Deck officer - adopting his best in-charge tone - "Ma'm, please hold your current course. I'm about to begin a turn to starboard and will be well clear of you. This is the USS Carl Vinson, bound for sea. Out"

...all that was missing was "Anchors Away" in the background.

Carl

 

[NC-C320]

Distances to Ship

Helmut,

When most people think in terms of a mile, it seems like a long distance. One has to think in a whole different realm when considering distances on ships. Large ships (and I assume tugboats also) are restricted by the channel. They can't maneuver to avoid a small boat. Many of these ships take over 1/4-1/2 mile to stop in emergency conditions. It's perhaps 1/4 - 1/2 mile to make a 180 degree turn. The channel is frequently more narrow than this. If he were to make such a stop, he is subject to go aground out of the channel once stopped or below steerageway. And if he makes such a stop to avoid you, you'll be at fault...any idea what it's going to cost you to get him refloated, checked by divers for damage, and to make repairs to the hull, prop, or rudder? It's hard to judge speed and distance over open water, and its the small boat who is making this judgement. Even if you are a saiboat and he is a power vessel, he has the right of way due to being restricted in his maneuverability by the channel and his draft. So yes, you have a right to be in the channel, but you have no right to endanger both vessels by crossing ahead of him. Hey, you are on a sailboat...by definition we sailboaters like to go slow (vs. speeds available from pleasure powerboats), so what's the big deal if we have to alter course a bit to make sure we cross under the ship's stern (and even here, tugs can present special problems with tows.....and if you take the trouble to learn the navigation lights, you can tell by the tug's lights that he has a tow behind him, and the tow normally exhibits some lights also). When you elect to cross the ship astern of him, if you make an error in judgement, you simply turn away from the direction of the ship and everything is ok. And if you must, because of the channel width and shoals that restrict both of you, come close to the ship in passing down his side towards his stern, start your engine just in case you need it. Also, when near these ships, sailors should be aware that they kick up some huge wakes that give you an additional set of problems.