Fresh Water Head and Effect on Calcification?

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Feb 3, 2009
280
Freedom 40/40 Rio Dulce, Guatemala
I'm in the enviable process of replacing my head hoses due to calcification (or whatever that &*@# is builds up in there). I was quite amazed at how small some of the 1.5" hoses had become. Some were easily down to 1/2".

Anyhow, I was talking to a friend of mine who has their head plumbed with fresh water and he was claiming that his hoses don't calcify. Can anyone vouch for this?

-- Geoff
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
It's simple.. you can clear the mineral deposits, which are formed when you mix uric acid and saltwater, by running a dilute solution of muriatic acid through the system. If you regularly maintain the system by flushing it with vinegar once in a while, and letting the vinegar sit, the acetic acid will help prevent this from occurring... but once it has occurred, something more potent is required. :)

The reason your friend's head doesn't have this problem is because freshwater doesn't have the mineral content for the uric acid to react to, so no deposits form. :)

However, plumbing a head with freshwater needs to be done properly or it can lead to a contaminated fresh water system and some nasty results from that...

The simplest way to plumb it is to put a "T" in the head sink drain line and feed the head pump from that. If you want to flush with salt water, leave the seacock open and plug the sink drain. If you want to flush with fresh water, close the seacock and fill the sink with fresh water. :) This also makes winterizing the head properly much simpler. :)
 
Feb 3, 2009
280
Freedom 40/40 Rio Dulce, Guatemala
We regularly flush vinegar down the head, but I suspect that the amount of vinnegar required to dissolve the buildup is much larger than anyone utilizes. I personally put this down as urban myth.

I used to flush the system with a muriatic solution, but found that it damaged the duck-bill valves. However, you could certainly hear it working! I also suspect that this isn't an EPA approved solution...

I completely agree with the worries over contamination of the fresh water system if the two are plumbed together. However, this clearly is done. Any ideas on how to properly do this?

-- Geoff
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
We regularly flush vinegar down the head, but I suspect that the amount of vinnegar required to dissolve the buildup is much larger than anyone utilizes. I personally put this down as urban myth.

I used to flush the system with a muriatic solution, but found that it damaged the duck-bill valves. However, you could certainly hear it working! I also suspect that this isn't an EPA approved solution...

I completely agree with the worries over contamination of the fresh water system if the two are plumbed together. However, this clearly is done. Any ideas on how to properly do this?

-- Geoff
Geoff—

In my previous post I described the simplest way to do this. It involves using the head sink drain through-hull as the intake through-hull for the head ... but assumes that your sink drains below the waterline. On my boat it does not, so I had to do something a bit different.

The sink acts as a separator between the fresh water potable water side and the septic side of the systems...reducing the risk of contamination to very remote levels.
 

Tim R.

.
May 27, 2004
3,626
Caliber 40 Long Range Cruiser Portland, Maine
Even if the sink drains below WL, the T must also be below WL or you will suck air. My system is setup this way(from the factory). If you cannot place the T below WL, simply add a ball valve between the bottom of the sink and hose.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Even if the sink drains below WL, the T must also be below WL or you will suck air. My system is setup this way(from the factory). If you cannot place the T below WL, simply add a ball valve between the bottom of the sink and hose.
Good point Tim. :)
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
You got some good information, some not quite accurate

The mineral buildup in your hoses is not a mix of uric acid and water...the minerals are salt and sea water calcium carbonate, and can occur in ALL raw water intake hoses, not just sanitation hoses...so check your engine intake and exhaust hoses and clean them out if necessary. The mineral content in warm sea water is much higher than it is in cold water, which means that buildup will occur much faster in warm waters than in cold.

Muriatic acid will dissolve it...and distilled white vinegar WILL prevent it when used correctly. Use ONLY distilled white vinegar, never cider or any other kind...white vinegar is made from distilled alcohol and is more acidic--and therefore more effective--vinegars made from fermented fruit juices. A cupful flushed through the hoses once a week before the boat will sit will prevent build up. Do NOT leave it sitting in the bowl...that accomplishes nothing except a ruined joker valve. Geoff says he uses vinegar "regularly," but doesn't say how often 'regularly' is, which type of vinegar, or how long it stays in the system before toilet use flushes it out. But used correctly, it DOES work!

Geoff, your friend is right that fresh water does eliiminate SEA water buildup in hoses...although some fresh water has a high mineral content that can result in "scale"...but much more slowly. However, I hope your friend has not connected a sea water toilet to his fresh water plumbing, 'cuz that's a BIG no-no! It cannot be done without risk of e-coli contamination of the fresh water, damage to the toilet pump or both...and EVERY toilet mfr. specifically warns against it in their installation instructions. There are only two safe ways to supply fresh water to a sea water toilet: a separate dedicated flush water tank that shares no plumbing with the fresh water system, or the head intake line connected to a sink drain. (I'm not sure exactly what sailingdog means by "the sink acts as a separator"....it's considerably more simple than that: sink drains are not connected to the potable water supply.)

While it's not really necessary to use fresh water to eliminate sea water mineral buildup, nor replace hoses to clean it out (beating 'em on the dock will get rid of 99% of it), does have the added benefit of eliminating sea water odor problems. But just flushing all the sea water out before the boat will sit solves that problem and the correct use of white vinegar will prevent the buildup.
 

Tim R.

.
May 27, 2004
3,626
Caliber 40 Long Range Cruiser Portland, Maine
I think Dog was referring to the physical separation between the faucet outlet(which is your fresh water supply) and the sink drain. Typically water can not reverse that path.
 
Apr 22, 2001
497
Hunter 420 Norfolk, VA
Well Geoff,
If you want the simplest, easiest solution (which requires no modifications and is totally safe); just turn off your saltwater head intake, and fill your head(s) with fresh water from your shower spray-head.
I've been doing it that way in both of my heads since I took delivery of my boat 8 years ago, and have never used salt water in my heads, even offshore.
I have never needed to replace any hoses or valves (nor do any appear to be in need of changing anytime soon). Nor have I ever had any head odor problems.
And, yes, I do use the boat; it has over 2000 hrs on the engine and more than 15,000 miles under the keel. So, the heads have had "their share" of use.
I have never put vinegar, chlorox, muriatic acid, mineral oil, fairy dust, or anything else in my heads; although I DO heavily use "K-O' and "Odorlos" after each pumpout.
I guess I'm just a simple guy who likes to do simple things (that work).
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
Not the recommended solution

It's unlikely that your toilet could still bring in any flush water if it had to...'cuz what's in the bowl only goes out through the bottom 1/3 of the pump...and without any lubrication even from water, all the seals, valves and o-rings in the top half of the pump have to have just about disintegrated by now. After 8 years, the ones in the bottom of the pump have to be so worn that your pump is only working at half its original efficiency or even less...the deterioration has been so gradual that you wouldn't notice. A toilet that's kept well lubricated should be rebuilt every 5 years is recommended to keep pumps working at full efficiency....without any lubrication, every 2-3 years. Joker valves should be replaced at least every 2 years...annually is better.

There are two "simple" approaches to boat maintenance...preventive and "do nothing to it till breaks." The "fix what breaks approach may be simpler, but things only break at the most INconvenient times...whereas you can do the preventive maintenance that keeps things from breaking when it is convenient.

Btw...2000 engine hours in just 8 years on a SAILBOAT??? That's an average of 250 hours a year...the average for powerboaters is only 100 hrs/year!!
 
Apr 22, 2001
497
Hunter 420 Norfolk, VA
It's unlikely that your toilet could still bring in any flush water if it had to...'cuz what's in the bowl only goes out through the bottom 1/3 of the pump...and without any lubrication even from water, all the seals, valves and o-rings in the top half of the pump have to have just about disintegrated by now. After 8 years, the ones in the bottom of the pump have to be so worn that your pump is only working at half its original efficiency or even less...the deterioration has been so gradual that you wouldn't notice. A toilet that's kept well lubricated should be rebuilt every 5 years is recommended to keep pumps working at full efficiency....without any lubrication, every 2-3 years. Joker valves should be replaced at least every 2 years...annually is better.

There are two "simple" approaches to boat maintenance...preventive and "do nothing to it till breaks." The "fix what breaks approach may be simpler, but things only break at the most INconvenient times...whereas you can do the preventive maintenance that keeps things from breaking when it is convenient.

Btw...2000 engine hours in just 8 years on a SAILBOAT??? That's an average of 250 hours a year...the average for powerboaters is only 100 hrs/year!!
OK, Peggy, so I have a sail-assisted motorboat :)
....with worn head seals :confused:
may..be, ... but the heads still work :dance:
and I'm still happy :snooty:

BTW , re., my engine hours ... see thread "Making an engine last longer"
re., "the average for powerboaters is only 100 hrs/year!" , I can't help it if many powerboaters don't want to spend the money on fuel or are just just too scared to take their boats out of the slip .. :redface:
 
Feb 3, 2009
280
Freedom 40/40 Rio Dulce, Guatemala
We typically spend 6+ months a year on BlueJacket in the Caribbean, where there are no pump-out facilities. Thus we either pump directly overboard when we're in remote areas or to the tank (and then overboard) when we're in more populated areas.

Having just pulled out the hoses which go from the head to the Y diverter valve to the Y between the macerator and the head to the through-hull, I can tell you that there are 18' of 1.5" hose. Now how much vinegar would you need to pump through this to keep it from calcifying?

-- Geoff (with over 35,000 miles on BlueJacket)
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
Only enough to make it all the way through the hose

It's not necessary to fill a hose with vinegar, nor does it have to stand in a hose...you only need enough vinegar to rinse out the hose and enough time to let the droplets caught by mineral crystals dissolve 'em. First rinse out the hose with fresh water...then follow with a cupful or two of white vinegar. Since you're flushing directly overboard most of the time, a pint of fresh water, followed by a cupful of vinegar should be enough to prevent buildup between the toilet and thru-hull.

However, there's no way to use vinegar in the tank discharge line and macerator. Rinsing out the tank discharge hose and macerator with clean fresh water after each pumpout should be enough to prevent 90% of buildup.

When it comes to both fresh water and vinegar, frequency of use is more important than quantity.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
I do the same... with explanation.

Well Geoff,
If you want the simplest, easiest solution (which requires no modifications and is totally safe); just turn off your saltwater head intake, and fill your head(s) with fresh water from your shower spray-head.
I've been doing it that way in both of my heads since I took delivery of my boat 8 years ago, and have never used salt water in my heads, even offshore.
I have never needed to replace any hoses or valves (nor do any appear to be in need of changing anytime soon). Nor have I ever had any head odor problems.
And, yes, I do use the boat; it has over 2000 hrs on the engine and more than 15,000 miles under the keel. So, the heads have had "their share" of use.
I have never put vinegar, chlorox, muriatic acid, mineral oil, fairy dust, or anything else in my heads; although I DO heavily use "K-O' and "Odorlos" after each pumpout.
I guess I'm just a simple guy who likes to do simple things (that work).
Day trips in the summer. You should see where they put the through-hull! though it is safely sealed in a seal compartment, it is too annoying to reach for a few uses. A jug on the shelf works fine.

In the winter. I keep a wide-mouth jug with a very weak solution of antifreeze. Although the hull is in 31F water, the top-sides may see 15F. It's too close to call.

If out for 2 days, we revert to normal practices. Besides, the hull valves need some exercise, too.
 
Feb 3, 2009
280
Freedom 40/40 Rio Dulce, Guatemala
Geoff, your friend is right that fresh water does eliiminate SEA water buildup in hoses...although some fresh water has a high mineral content that can result in "scale"...but much more slowly. However, I hope your friend has not connected a sea water toilet to his fresh water plumbing, 'cuz that's a BIG no-no! It cannot be done without risk of e-coli contamination of the fresh water, damage to the toilet pump or both...and EVERY toilet mfr. specifically warns against it in their installation instructions. There are only two safe ways to supply fresh water to a sea water toilet: a separate dedicated flush water tank that shares no plumbing with the fresh water system, or the head intake line connected to a sink drain. (I'm not sure exactly what sailingdog means by "the sink acts as a separator"....it's considerably more simple than that: sink drains are not connected to the potable water supply.)
Peggy, how do so many boats have fresh water heads then? Yesterday I talked to several manufacturers of trawlers that have fresh water heads, and none of them have a separate fresh water tank for the heads.

Also, Raritan sells fresh water flush systems. For example, please see http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/obsolete/L297_sea_fresh_install.pdf

It would seem to me that I could plumb a similar system into my head. I don't want a system that requires filling a sink and using that to flush the head. Just ask the admiral...that's not acceptable. We cruise for 6+ months out of the year, and this has to be a permanent solution, not something cobbled together using a sink or the shower head.

-- Geoff
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
Clearly we are over-simplifying something here, or we would see calcium build-up on the shoreline.

The mineral buildup in your hoses is not a mix of uric acid and water...the minerals are salt and sea water calcium carbonate, and can occur in ALL raw water intake hoses, not just sanitation hoses...so check your engine intake and exhaust hoses and clean them out if necessary. The mineral content in warm sea water is much higher than it is in cold water, which means that buildup will occur much faster in warm waters than in cold.

Muriatic acid will dissolve it...and distilled white vinegar WILL prevent it when used correctly. Use ONLY distilled white vinegar, never cider or any other kind...white vinegar is made from distilled alcohol and is more acidic--and therefore more effective--vinegars made from fermented fruit juices. A cupful flushed through the hoses once a week before the boat will sit will prevent build up. Do NOT leave it sitting in the bowl...that accomplishes nothing except a ruined joker valve. Geoff says he uses vinegar "regularly," but doesn't say how often 'regularly' is, which type of vinegar, or how long it stays in the system before toilet use flushes it out. But used correctly, it DOES work!

Geoff, your friend is right that fresh water does eliiminate SEA water buildup in hoses...although some fresh water has a high mineral content that can result in "scale"...but much more slowly. However, I hope your friend has not connected a sea water toilet to his fresh water plumbing, 'cuz that's a BIG no-no! It cannot be done without risk of e-coli contamination of the fresh water, damage to the toilet pump or both...and EVERY toilet mfr. specifically warns against it in their installation instructions. There are only two safe ways to supply fresh water to a sea water toilet: a separate dedicated flush water tank that shares no plumbing with the fresh water system, or the head intake line connected to a sink drain. (I'm not sure exactly what sailingdog means by "the sink acts as a separator"....it's considerably more simple than that: sink drains are not connected to the potable water supply.)

While it's not really necessary to use fresh water to eliminate sea water mineral buildup, nor replace hoses to clean it out (beating 'em on the dock will get rid of 99% of it), does have the added benefit of eliminating sea water odor problems. But just flushing all the sea water out before the boat will sit solves that problem and the correct use of white vinegar will prevent the buildup.
Visit the Salton Sea and you will certainly see some salt on the shoreline, but even there, not carbonates to any great extent. The only carbonates are those gathered by the myriad brine shrimp.

As for the raw water intake, at some point in the engine there be enough heat to take the calcium concentration above the scale point (calcium carbonate and calcium silicate are less soluable when hot), but that is fairly hot and generally indicates a design flaw. I work around cooling water systems, and if we are calcifiying lines, it is generally because we have let something get too hot through a design error. Heat is not a factor on the head lines.

In the discharge lines we have added additional chemistry, including uric and phosphate ions and a pH change. These are far less soluable than carbonate ions, and though I have not checke the pH of black water, that is an additional factor as we have pointed out; it takes strong acid to disolve deposites, but only very slightly acidic conditions to prevent the start.

But why would the inside of a cold intake hose build-up? Seems to me there must be a biological growth component here, because there is no chemisrty in the line that does not exist in the ocean. This seems obvious - there is no anti-fouling on the inside of the hoses. The only thing keeping growth in check is that, with the seacock closed, there is no oxygen, sunlight, or food supluy. Why dosen't the glass in a salt water aquarium collect calcium deposits?

On a different note, has anyone ever tried teflon-lined chemical hose? Though expensive, the stuff is very durable, should resits this sort of fouling by its shear sliperiness, and is quite odor-proof. There are reasons it is used extensively in the chemical trade. Other weaknesses are stiffness and difficulty in fitting, but these are managable for seldom-moved hose.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
I suggest you research "sea water calcium carbonates"

You'll learn that, among other things, it's the main ingredient in coral and other sea shells...and IS present in sea water aquariums.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
You cut me to the quick!

You'll learn that, among other things, it's the main ingredient in coral and other sea shells...and IS present in sea water aquariums.
I know chemistry very well. I thought I explained.

The questions is, why inside a sucction hose? This DOES NOT happen to the walls of the sea water aquarium, or rather if it does, it is because of marine growth that has gotten completely out-of-hand. In other words, the encrustation of the intake line is due to growth, not crystalization. The Ca is there, but not at levels that support spontainious crystalixzation. Even if super saturated, there must be a trigger. In most parts of the world, we don't se rampant precipitation on every free surface. What is different in the hoses? Are they just enough warmer? Perhaps so, and in warm climates the solubility is less. In the waste lines, it could be both mechanism, since we have "added" new chemistry. I'm not about to study poop so closely.

The point is this: if the sea cock is honestly kept closed, I doubt the week-end cruiser would quickly clog an intake line. The bio-organism would starve for daylight, oxygen and food. If they leave them open when off the boat - probably the case - then plenty of creatures will make the surfaces home.

The question I thought you might be able to answer for the group, was if teflon-lined hose has ever been experimented with in this application? It is easily aquired from industrial suppliers and might have real advantages. I suspect not.
 
Jan 10, 2009
590
PDQ 32 Deale, MD
I think I over simplified the question, or perhaps asked a trick question...

I know chemistry very well. I thought I explained.

The questions is, why inside a suction hose? This DOES NOT happen to the walls of the sea water aquarium, or rather if it does, it is because of marine growth that has gotten completely out-of-hand. In other words, the encrustation of the intake line is due to growth, not crystallization. The Ca is there, but not at levels that support spontaneous crystallization. Even if super saturated, there must be a trigger.
The real question is why in the hose? In an aquarium there is supersatuation, because the water evaporates down. Why not deposit on the glass? Because glass is smooth and give few nucleation sites, and because there are other better surfaces. The coral sand in the bottom is a better choice because it is primarily calcium carbonate and provides those sites. The inside of a heat exchanger is a good choice because it is hot. What is so good about a cool intake hose?

Perhaps the texture. Is it rough? Smooth would be more resistant. Is marine growth present? That will present calcium-based skeletons. I know in my work we often polish surfaces or provide low-friction polymer linings to reduce scale and fouling, if simple treatment is not practical or effective.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,915
- - LIttle Rock
The real answer:

The questions is, why inside a sucction hose?

Because the inside of a hose is an anaerobic environment.

Keep researching....:)

Btw...I'll be out of town and away from the computer till at least through Monday...so if you need to comment again, please save me the effort of scrolling through 4 days of posts to find it and wait till at least Sunday nite to post it?

Thank you.
 
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