Cutta Hole in my Boat!

[emergpa1]

As many of you know I am in the process of rebuilding my Oday 26. It began with redcognition of an oddity: I had a sag under my mast tabernacle. So I innocently posted a question under trailor sailors: "Sea Trek: trouble with tabernacles" As i came to recognize the extent of the problem, I started a new thread: "That sinking feelin..trouble with compression post.". I found out, thanks to all the good advice,that the core of the deck under my tabernacle is rotten. In addition, with all the digging around I found that the forward bulkheads were rotted out along with most of the wood in the head and lavatory, and of course the fabric liner of the cabin is molded. I had many leaks from various areas.

No wonder the PO was anxious to sell. I was a starry eyed dreamer who saw only the beautiful lines of "MY Girl" and had been dreaming of buying a sailboat for years. So, not one to be afraid of DIY projects, I have almost completly gutted her and am in the process of repair and rebuild. So that brings me to the reason for starting this New Thread: I have cut out the top skin and removed the rotted core under the tabenacle. I still had bad ecge, so cut away to away some more try to get to mostly good core. There ARE still a FEW areas that are soft along the edges but no much. I was beginning to get a fairly large area and was afraid to cut more.( I have don casey's books, but sometimes the advice is a little sketchy...i.e. all repairs are on flat surfaces, no edges of wood are "iffy", what do you do if you screw up, etc. ) I would like to get opinions on how to cure the edges so that the wood that is still soft will not weaken the repair.

Also, a big question is "How do i finish the surface?" I want to use west system epoxy and glass matt, but some say (don caseys book) you cant put gel coat over epoxy!

Please help
Keith

 

[emergpa1]

below are pictures of the skin cut-a-way, and the area at the mast. At this point i have ground down to the inner skin. I don't know whether to paint this area after finish, or use gel coat. I want to repair with west system epoxy and glass mat. Grinding edges 12/1, etc.

 

[emergpa1]

pix of how the area under the tabernacle looked before cut out. And an area of rot in the bulkhead.Also here are the replacement bulkheads being trial fitted into place. Notice i decided to enlarge the v birth by eliminating the forward head I electing to trade a separate head compartment with a cassette toilet for a cassette toilet that fit in an area under the v birth accessible during day, and easily moved aft for night time access... but more on that later. I will definately want feed back on the interior finish process.If you look carefully you can see that i have removed all the wall covering and have ground down to fiberglass. All electrical circuits will be replaced.

 

[sailormanbigd]

gutted

Nice post with good pics. First off, I would use black plastic on the exterior repair instead of clear to generate more heat. Secondly, I would duct tape the edges to prevent any water from getting inside. Thirdly, I would put some sort of blower device to it to help dry it out. You can also wipe it down with acetone to removew any oils from edges first, this will help dry it out. If it were me i would use glass and plyester resin to repair it after you glue down the core mat'l. Just cuz i know fiberglass resin. I am sure that epoxy is stronger and will get a better bond though. Then sand the glass repair, whipe it down good with clean rags and acetone and gellcoat it with roller and brush.
The inside pics are interesting. You redesigned the main bulkheads? The original ones continued along the ridge on top of the interior lining did'nt they? On the left side all the way to the centerline of the boat. This bulkhead is the central most structurally significant component to the design. It helps with support for the mast but the compression post does most of it. What it does do though is to transmit the stresses throughout the hull. Boats are just like a chlorox bottle, you can sqeeze then and twist them for and aft and all around. You can't do it by hand but the stresses of wind and sea do. Therefore you are taking a giant risk in redesignning the main bulkhead to not be the way it was initially designed. I like the way it opens up the interior though. I would think at the very least you would put a heavy beam across the cabin top attached solidly to the new bulkheads.
As far as the interior walls go, since you have all the old "wallpaper" off as well as the glue, just wipe it down with acetone to remove any wax/oil and put whatever you like on the walls, ie, prime and paint or glue on some carpet or what have you. Good luck on the project you have accomplished alot all ready. Patrick

 

[Joe11688]

I have a friend who bought a Pearson Ariel at a good price. He's a cabinet maker by trade, but he's really good at working with fiberglass. He found a lot of bad soft punky areas on the deck of this boat and cut it right out just like you're doing, only he didn't finish it with Gelcoat. He used to a two part epoxy type of paint like Awl Grip. For the deck he mixed silica sand for a non skid surface. He bought a hatch that didn't fit the curvature of his forward deck or was not exactly the right fit, so he built a frame out of solid white oak. He used a lot of oak inside the cabin. The boat came out looking real nice. So my advice to you is; if you don't have the equipment to apply gelcoat and you don't want to go to the expense of having someone do it, I would go to a two part epoxy paint. It's easy to apply and it comes out looking great. I've never had any luck with Gelcoat in all the years that I've owned my boat. Gelcoat needs to be sealed after it is applied so that it can cure from the inside out. Epoxy paint is a whole lot simpler, I think.
Joe

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Keith,

Two comments:

I put gel coat over epoxy all the time. Just remember that the epoxy surface must be ruffed up, professional fixers use 80 grit.

Actually Gel Coat comes in more than one type. Evercoat makes a gel coat that does not have to be sealed to cure. But even using the kind that has to be sealed to get that smooth finish, just use ordinary kitchen wax paper. That is what the fixer uppers use.

Also, and I have said it before on this forum there is a non hazmat cleaner for brushes that works. It allows you to get several uses out of brushes or spraders. It is a product that I have found only available from one source and it has to be by internet order. I tried their quart and it worked so good that I followed up ordering a gallon. It is a product called TA 661 from:
http://www.epoxyproducts.com/8_misc.html

I think that you will get a better overall effect in painting, but Gel Coat is just really a thick paint. Even if you paint, you do not want a polished surface but a ruff surface. In painting it is referred to as mechanical adhesion.

Ed K

 

[emergpa1]

thanks folks, i think i will go with the epoxy paint. i am used to paint, never done gel coat. where can i get some balsa core?
BTW, i intend to put a compresion post under the mast

 

[Joe11688]

thanks folks, i think i will go with the epoxy paint. i am used to paint, never done gel coat. where can i get some balsa core?
BTW, i intend to put a compresion post under the mast

Check out the Ship Shape TV web site:
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/press/article/0,,DIY_13703_2279269,00.html
I don't think that the average DYS is using balsa core anymore. They have a synthetic type of core on the market that is more superior and stands up better than balsa for these type of repairs. Check it out.
Joe

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Keith,

Patrick noted that you changed the shape of your bulkheads. Do you happen to be a N. A? That is naval architech?

Yes the bulkheads are there to help support the mast. However, they are also there to maintain the shape of the hull and deck when those are under stress from wind and water. They are there and shaped the way they are for reasons.

As a sailboat sails the stress from the wind and water changes and bulkheads are computed to redistribute stress. Specifically all stress does not go to keel or compression post.

Naval Architechs and boat designers have technical formulas for evaluating stress. Look at Ted Brewers books on boat design, and others such as David Gerr, Eric Sponberg, et al.

Ed K

 

[emergpa1]

Keith,

Patrick noted that you changed the shape of your bulkheads. Do you happen to be a N. A? That is naval architech?

Yes the bulkheads are there to help support the mast. However, they are also there to maintain the shape of the hull and deck when those are under stress from wind and water. They are there and shaped the way they are for reasons.

As a sailboat sails the stress from the wind and water changes and bulkheads are computed to redistribute stress. Specifically all stress does not go to keel or compression post.

Naval Architechs and boat designers have technical formulas for evaluating stress. Look at Ted Brewers books on boat design, and others such as David Gerr, Eric Sponberg, et al.

Ed K

Now Ed, if i were an NA, i wouldn't be revealing what a sail-boat-ignoramous I am! My degree is in medicine. I was raised by a handy-man carpenter, and that is how i spent my summers, and evenings after school. This little bit of experience surely does not qualify me to redesign bulkheads. But i am rather fearless, the boat is just a hobby, and so, well there it is. I wanted a bigger more comfortable bunk, and did not like all that wasted space just for a cassett toilett. So I decided to redesign.

I based my decision to do so on the following. I HOPE that the support is adequate.The assumptions may or may not be right.

1. The original bulkheads did not meet in the center and were two separate pieces. The new bulkheads, though not as wide, match those characteristics.
2. The original bulkheads were not supported forward or aft, neither are the new ones.
3. The original bulkheads had no compression post under the mast, only a piece of trim. I am installing a compression post from mast to sole. It appears that this would compensate for the small loss of support under the mast that the narrower bulkheads would cost.
4. I am a damn good swimmer!

Thanks for the lively debate, and i retain the right to be totally wrong
keith
ps. the pic is of my son, showing me around one of the C-17's he maintains for the USAF during an air show

 

[emergpa1]

Re: gutted

Thanks for the input sailormanbigd,
I like the idea of the black plastic. Good point on the redesign of the bulkheads. I knew it was the main structural support. It should still be supportive for twists. I am hopefull that supplying the post in the center will make up for the somewhat narrower bulkheads. We shall see. At this time, these are only loosley fitted templates. and will not be tabbed in until all the deck repair is completed. I had my cabinet maker in today to look inside. he is going to do the install of a chest under the bunk, just aft of the "water tank locker/bottom of the v-birth" area. It is hard to put into words how the v-birth will be designed. but it is pretty common sense design, nothing very creative, just a longer vbirth with storage space under the bunks, and cassett toilett with hinged access located on the port side just forward of the main bulkhead.
keith

 

[emergpa1]

Strange Discovery

Interestingly, two core materials were used under the mast. It seems that, under the tabernacle, plywood was used. There was a square patch of plywood in place under the mast. It was surrounded with an area of epoxy (or resin of some sort), then outside of that, end grain balsa was used. I have been online researching this. I am not sure what to use for the core. It is 3/8" thick. I found some endgrain balsa supplier, but still am not satisfied. I called D&R to ask ruddy about it, but he hasn't called back. any ideas? (Note that all those holes were my drilling to test and dry the core. to much rot found led to the cut out.)
keith

 

[emergpa1]

Check out the Ship Shape TV web site:
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/press/article/0,,DIY_13703_2279269,00.html
I don't think that the average DYS is using balsa core anymore. They have a synthetic type of core on the market that is more superior and stands up better than balsa for these type of repairs. Check it out.
Joe

Joe, I went to the website above, but could find no article on core material, even with search, browse, etc. Did see the site about the show though. Looks cool
keith

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Keith,

Marine plywood is used in boats where stress is anticipated, like under the mast. Good plywood is strong stuff. It handles stress well. It spreads the stress load over a greater area.

The plywood is also attached to both the cabin top and to the ceiling liner. A rule of thumb that I was given is that a layer of glassed mat is about equivalent of a 1/4 inch of plywood. So the plywood under the mast is spreading the load to both the cabin top and the ceiling. It is spreading the load to nearby bulkheads. That is on the 26 the fore and aft bulkheads.

On the 26 the bulkheads are glassed to the hull to maintain hull shape under different loads from wind and water pressure.

My O'Day 26 has a compression post. Where was yours? Mine measures about 2 3/4 inches by about 3 3/4 inches. When the mast is up it is loaded. Mine is made out of teak. In an O'Day 25 I am familiar with, it is oak, and for the record his goes thru the floor to the base of the hull, while mine has a fiberglassed support under the floor.
It may look like trim becaused it is groved to receive the bulkhead, but it is not trim but a compression post spreading the load. Also it screwed to the bulkhead thereby spreading the load to the bulkhead from the top to the bottom.

Since there is fiberglass under the flooring the bulkheads are really attached to the other side to maintain hull shape and balanced load. I suspect that between the cabiin roof and ceiling you will find an extra layer or two of glass reinforcement. Can you see back that far on the hole in your roof? Keep in mind the little ridge that stops the sliding hatch. Is that glassed to act as a arch support? Is that acting to connect the port and starboard bulkheads on top?

If you bring one of your medical cameras on the end of a tube (endoscopy) you can take a picture of my support under the compression post.

So, as to one of your questions, I would use marine grade plywood. It would not hurt to use marine grade plywood under all your repair area. Seal all ends of plywood used with epoxy to prevent water or moisture penitration. Use epoxy paste to fill gaps and insure attachment.

Ed K
26

 

[RichBone]

Why not just fill the space with glass mat?

 

[emergpa1]

Keith,

Marine plywood is used in boats where stress is anticipated, like under the mast. Good plywood is strong stuff. It handles stress well. It spreads the stress load over a greater area.

The plywood is also attached to both the cabin top and to the ceiling liner. A rule of thumb that I was given is that a layer of glassed mat is about equivalent of a 1/4 inch of plywood. So the plywood under the mast is spreading the load to both the cabin top and the ceiling. It is spreading the load to nearby bulkheads. That is on the 26 the fore and aft bulkheads.

On the 26 the bulkheads are glassed to the hull to maintain hull shape under different loads from wind and water pressure.

My O'Day 26 has a compression post. Where was yours? Mine measures about 2 3/4 inches by about 3 3/4 inches. When the mast is up it is loaded. Mine is made out of teak. In an O'Day 25 I am familiar with, it is oak, and for the record his goes thru the floor to the base of the hull, while mine has a fiberglassed support under the floor.
It may look like trim becaused it is groved to receive the bulkhead, but it is not trim but a compression post spreading the load. Also it screwed to the bulkhead thereby spreading the load to the bulkhead from the top to the bottom.

Since there is fiberglass under the flooring the bulkheads are really attached to the other side to maintain hull shape and balanced load. I suspect that between the cabiin roof and ceiling you will find an extra layer or two of glass reinforcement. Can you see back that far on the hole in your roof? Keep in mind the little ridge that stops the sliding hatch. Is that glassed to act as a arch support? Is that acting to connect the port and starboard bulkheads on top?

If you bring one of your medical cameras on the end of a tube (endoscopy) you can take a picture of my support under the compression post.

So, as to one of your questions, I would use marine grade plywood. It would not hurt to use marine grade plywood under all your repair area. Seal all ends of plywood used with epoxy to prevent water or moisture penitration. Use epoxy paste to fill gaps and insure attachment.

Ed K
26

Thanks Ed,
Rudy called a little while ago and he also recommended marine plywood. He also said seal it with epoxy. I asked him about the curve, and he said to cut grooves on one side to allow curvature (sp?). As to the bulkhead question, i believe i may return the bulkheads to go as wide as before, but cut small ports/windows in them to allow light through. this would allow attachment of the compression post to the bulkhead, but still give light through. I realize the ports, which i invision as a triangle shape with the long side of the triangle matching the angle of the cabin roof, may compromise integrety somewhat, but not as great as my current design.
I also wondered if i could just patch with fiberglass mat?

 

[sailormanbigd]

Holes In Boats

Hey, glad to see you have gotten the picture about hull stress. What was never mentioned is the attachement of the side chainplates that suport the mast. Mine on the 25 are attached to the main bulkhead, and on the 26?
If you are interested- i did modify my 25's forward bulkhead and extended the vbirth to become a "playground" of cushions. I put in a one inch fillet on both sides of bulkhead with bondoglass and fiberglassed the bulkhead to the hull and glassed over the bulkhead then i cut a section out to open up the forward area some. Still maintain support but openned it up some-i am 6'5" and 215#. I put in a double hinged plywood deck that opens up to uncover the head but folds down to make a bed. Could get pics to you in a few days if interested? I am an RN in ICU-guess thats considered medicine. Patrick

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Re: Holes In Boats

Patrick,

The 26 was just an updated 25. The chainplates are twin brothers. The differences are the style of the front hatch. On the 26 the front of slopes level so that a standard hatch is what is used. The 26 is 10 inches longer. Some of that but not all are in the cockpit. If I had to guess, they cut the 25 molds in two places and put in two 5 inch sections. I suspect the second in somewhere in the keel. The 26 keel might be 5 inches longer in addition to 3 inches deeper.

I have not taken time to compare the forward bulkhead, but they are not the same because the hatch is completely over the v berth.

The keel on the 26 is deeper so that the 26 does not inherently have the rudder below the keel as in the 25. It is about even.

Otherwise an 82 or 83 O'Day 25 is very close to the O'Day 26. Whereas the early 25's were different in the Cabin and location of the swing keel line.

If you ever get a chance to see an early 25 and intermediate 25's then the 26 you see the progression. It was a learning curve.

Keith,

One reason I like the current layout is for the ladies. When I go out, I often have various age groups and they like the private changing room to get into and out of bathing suits.

Ed K
Fair winds

 

[emergpa1]

Hey, glad to see you have gotten the picture about hull stress. What was never mentioned is the attachement of the side chainplates that suport the mast. Mine on the 25 are attached to the main bulkhead, and on the 26?
If you are interested- i did modify my 25's forward bulkhead and extended the vbirth to become a "playground" of cushions. I put in a one inch fillet on both sides of bulkhead with bondoglass and fiberglassed the bulkhead to the hull and glassed over the bulkhead then i cut a section out to open up the forward area some. Still maintain support but openned it up some-i am 6'5" and 215#. I put in a double hinged plywood deck that opens up to uncover the head but folds down to make a bed. Could get pics to you in a few days if interested? I am an RN in ICU-guess thats considered medicine. Patrick

Thanks partrick, pix would be great. I would like to get as many ideas as possible.
i really want a bigger v-birth, but do not want to compromise boat strenght to a degree that it is dangerous. I will be lake sailing, but hope someday to take her down to the gulf and cruise along shore to the Florida Keys...but don't we all!
gotta go to work now. thanks for the input. i hope to see everyone someday at an oday renunion
keith
p.s. what is the best way to get all that calk off the ports (opening ports) I took them off yesterday, and used acetone on one till i realized i was melting the plastic!
What is the best stuff to put them back on with?
thanks

 

[emergpa1]

well, since no one answered the last question, i will give the answer that i found with abundant reading, research, web browsing, and asking around the club: I looks like that the best way to get off silicon caulk from the plastic ports is alcohol, and elbow grease. no i didn't try beer. i went to walmart and bought rubbing alcohol. To get the caulk off the cabin sides i used acetone. then i scrubed everything down with a brillo pad. All the screw holes were busted and cracked so I ground down to solid lamnant with a cone shaped grinding stone attached to my dremmel. tomorrow i hope to patch and fill the ground out areas with epoxy paste. if i do that, it will be the first time i have put epoxy to boat. I am a bit nervous!