electric engine in sailboat

[48dodge]

Why can't they come up with a electric motor that charges itself? Draw power to operate on one end, while charging on the other. If it sounds to good to be true, you can rest assured a oil company owns it.

Keep it up,
Ctskip

It is too good to be true. That would be the same as a perpetual motion machine. You can use an electric motor as a generator, though. As for the tesla car and battery pack and similar technology in a boat, anything's possible ($). The tesla basically runs on laptop batteries. Lots and lots of them.

From Wikipedia
"
Battery system

Tesla Motors refers to the Roadster's battery pack as the Energy Storage System or ESS. The ESS contains 6,831 lithium ion cells arranged into 11 "sheets" connected in series; each sheet contains 9 "bricks" connected in series; each "brick" contains 69 cells connected in parallel (11S 9S 69P). The cells are 18 mm (0.71 in) in diameter and 65 mm (2.6 in) long (18650 form-factor); this type of lithium-ion cell is also found in most laptop computer batteries.[9][44][45]
A full recharge of the battery system requires 3½ hours using the High Power Connector; in practice, recharge cycles usually start from a partially charged state and require less time. A fully charged ESS stores approximately 53 kWh of electrical energy at a nominal 375 volts and weighs 992 lb (450 kg). The Tesla Motors Club bulletin board has estimated the 2008 replacement cost at approximately $20,000; this cost is likely to decline in the future. The ESS is expected to retain 70% capacity after 5 years and 50,000 miles (80,000 km) of driving (10,000 miles (16,000 km) driven each year). Tesla Motors provides a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty on the Roadster with an optional 4 year/50,000 mile extended warranty available at an "additional cost" (2008 Roadster buyers receive the 4/50 extension at no cost while later purchasers need to pay).[14][46]
The pack is designed to prevent catastrophic cell failures from propagating to adjacent cells, even when the cooling system is off. Coolant is pumped continuously through the ESS both when the car is running and when the car is turned off if the pack retains more than a 90% charge. The coolant pump draws 146 watts.[47][48] [49] Tesla Motors announced plans to sell the battery system to TH!NK and possibly others through its Tesla Energy Group division. That plan was put on hold by interim CEO Michael Marks in September, 2007.[50][51][52]"

 

[Benny]

There was a company in Russia that would install a small nuclear reactor in pleasure boats. The reactor would only need to be fueled every 20 years but it would have to go back to the factory for that. It was supposed to have a cost of around US$55,000, not bad considering it included 20 years of fuel. It was supposed to be quiet and very efficient. I think one of the biggest drawbacks was that you would not be allowed to enter a good number of seaports around the world and any repairs would have to be conducted by factory trained personell traveling at your expense. I don't think that company made it either.

 

[Franklin]

From their web page (http://www.teslamotors.com/learn_more/faqs.php?flat=1#faq-q-text2)

How far can the Tesla Roadster drive between charges?

Actual range depends on driving style and conditions. During testing of prototypes cars, Tesla Motors has seen between 170 miles per charge for very spirited driving to 267 miles per charge for city driving that makes use of the Roadster's regenerative braking. Our most recent EPA driving cycle tests, conducted February 2008, at an EPA-certified facility, resulted in the following numbers:

-231 mi EPA city
-224 mi EPA highway

Keep in mind that Tesla Motors is in the midst of final development and testing for the Tesla Roadster. While we are confident in our most recent numbers, the final results will be dependent on the car's specifications at series production. We will update our EPA range numbers once we have fully tested a production Roadster, expected in early 2008.

 

[Franklin]

as for weight...my engine weights 400 lbs and a full tank 260 lbs = 660 lbs. So adding those batteries is like adding another crew member.

 

[Franklin]

I see my mistake. I was seeing it like, if they can get 224 miles off of normal highway driving, that's like 2/3 of a tank of gasoline. So that should equal 2/3rds a tank on a boat, but I totally forgot the differences.

My car = 140 hp with 12 gallon tank.
My boat = 40 hp with 36 gallon tank.

big difference in the ratios.

Ok...I want that nuke engine now

 

[Franklin]

more I think of it, that nuke solution is awesome. Assuming it is a nuke plant to generate electricity to run the electric engine and also power all the electronics on the boat. No need for batteries at all or solor panels or wind generators. That's the way to go. Shame they are out of business.

 

[John]

Nuclear-run sailboats seems to me insanity. 1)Nuclear power plants give off radiation constantly. How would you like to be exposed to this 24-7? 2) What happens if the boat sinks?

Just like the idea of an electric motor that produces as much electricity as it consumes - there is no free lunch.

 

[Steve Dion]

You will still need a small engine to recharge the batteries to make the use of an electric motor a practical solution.

 

[Ross]

World war 2 submarines were diesel electric with batteries for submerged operations. They all had to come to periscope depth to run engines and recharge the batteries. When they were in known friendly waters they ran on the surface.

 

[kendall]

Nuclear-run sailboats seems to me insanity. 1)Nuclear power plants give off radiation constantly. How would you like to be exposed to this 24-7? 2) What happens if the boat sinks?

Well, you do haul around that big lead keel, you could embed the reactor into the keel.

would love to see a very high density battery pack that would propel a boat for a couple hundred miles.
My thought is that to make it feasible, you'd almost have to design the boat from scratch to carry the batteries comfortably without cutting into space or making the boat sit too low in the water.
I've looked into the conversion before, but couldn't see getting enough range to make it feasible at the time, like someone else said 50 miles was about the best you could hope for.

Diesel electric would work, but since you have the the diesel.....

Ken

 

[Ross]

At about 4 knots I get about 20 nmpg diesel. I seem to recall that one gallon of gasoline in a engine equals about 1300 pounds of lead-acid batteries. My boat carries about 3000 pounds of ballast that could be replaced with batteries. However I don't think that even the modern technology batteries would equal the 10 gallons of diesel that I carry in the primary tank not to mention the 6 gallon portable cans lashed to the stern rail.

 

[jepomer]

I have been experimenting with trolling motors and multiple deep-cycle 6 volt batteries to power my O'Day 19 and this spring for my newly acquired Catalina Capri 22 WK. The quietness goes along with the quietness of sailing.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/

The Yahoo group on electric boats is a wonderful source of experiments from simple trolling motors to large multi-hull yachts with generators.

Just remember that there are many different solutions because there are many different goals that the owners have.

For myself, a simple 12 Minn Kota Endura is sufficient for maneuvering around the dock and reasonably quiet water. Four (4) supplied all of the energy I needed for last July 4th week on Lake Champlain. It is good for about 3 mph. I am investigating RE-E-Power (http://www.re-e-power.com/) for 2010 (budgetary reasons).


John

 

[Bob S]

I'm sure, not far in the future, most sailboats will be driven by electric motors. Advancements in motor technology, battery technology along with advancements in solar technology will bring it all together. I vaguely remember reading about an electric boat in Caldor's book that was powered by a series of 2v NiCad batteries. Tim posted an interesting discovery of a new coating on solar panels that will revolutionize their use.


Franklin, I too have fantasized what it would be like to cruise with an electric motor. The peacefulness would approach that of sailing. Add to that an unlimited supply of energy. I can tell you my wife would love, she is always complaining when we start the engine to replenish the batteries.

 

[dvideohd]

This sounds like a MOD......

Boats are unlike electric cars....

I looked into a lot of aspects of this at one time. The best comparison I can think of is that if you dress up a Pig in a 3 piece suite, then that WILL NOT make a Wall Street Banker... but you might get close.

If you are talking Mods... then a small boat is a good place to start... MacGregor owners are fiends at modding thier boats.. just about have to be...

I think it a big mistake to "PUSH" expensive conversions to electric as an sole "alternative" to the diesel or outboard... Converting a Columbia 28 to electric by replacing an Atomic 4 is certainly possible. It could be expensive - and there is no "optimally designed" solution.... but a lot of limitations.

There is a lot of "Tesla" car design similarity issues... For a car and a boat, the main difficulty is not really the engine or energy storage.. it's all the other stuff that drives up the cost....

******************
A while back, I bought a Porsche 914 with the idea of converting to electric (not a plug in - just solar powered)..... I then learned a LOT MORE about what was involved (and what I just did not know - in abundance). It's a good conversion candidate. Street Legal, easy to Mod, very simple, and you can buy off the shelf kits... Let's say $8k will do a nice job... The 914 has a low horsepower, air cooled engine and easy to work on. 90 hp will do just about everything you want with a car. 45hp will do almost everything you want to do... and it is a good tradeoff to look at low hp motors (like single or dual aircraft electric motor) in order to extend the battery life... So you can get 50 miles a charge - at street speeds of 45mph or lower... A serious hacker can power and convert to electric for less than $1K, if patiently shopping ebay... but that is not a production product...

You cannot get the ultrasmall deisel/electric/generator combinations for a car yet - though... doesn't quite apply to boats yet, though - either...

***********

I think you have to step back and look at what you have... Most of the time, you plan on sailing. SO you want to harvest that "excess" wind energy to put back in a battery... solar, wind, or bettery yet - a small turbine are ways to do it.. When you are looking at hull speed.... so what if it takes a knot or two of exta wind to get you to that point.... that would be the power you want to pull out... A reasonable idea is to harvest the wind (windmill), solar, and water power to put into the motor and/or battery combination.

*************

As a pratical matter, it takes about 4 hp to send a Mac26D to hull speed. That's pretty low. One might consider a pair of electric trolling motors at 70# of thurst to replace - or use as backup. that's two or three good batteries. It sounds like a reasonable mod to do - and report back on.

Add decent charge control, the right "drop in generator" and you would have a reasonable electric system - that does not cost an arm and a leg.

In my mind, you could reliably do it for less than $2K. A good design would be less.

It's not pretty like the inboard electric... but it would get the job done.. .

How well it would work... well.. certainly depends on the boat and system. For my use, I would keep the outboard... just not plan on using it much...

************

I have not done this yet - but I have looked at doing it...

My point above was to think differently about electric... it is expensive to just replace a combustion motor - when the electric works in such a different fashion. Both motors push a boat - but the energy collection and storage is so much different...

--jerry

**********

Just as Franklin says...
-- new costings are coming that will let you use a lot more of the sun at other than the perpendicular.
-- Cells are being driven down in cost by some companies - toward the magic $ a watt number...
-- Cells are being drive to be a LOT more efficient...

similar things can happen to the harvest of wind and water motion... there are very good times for such technology....

 

[Ross]

There are engineering issues here that make comparing boats to cars impossible. rolling resistance does not increase exponentially with speed but wave making resistance does. A canal boat can move fifty tons at 3 knots with five hp and at 9 knots with 50 hp.

 

[Hermit Scott]

If any of you guys go to book stores like Borders or Barnes and Nobles, look in the magazine section this month. There is a trawler that has solar panels on top of it. I would estimate the area to be 250 square feet. There is a diesel with a motor/generator on the back by the output shaft and there is a butt load of batteries.
They had a speed vs. power consumption chart. With out starting the diesel, I think it would run perpetually at 3 or 4 knts 24/7, but at 10 knots it had to charge every 2 or 3 hours.
I can't believe no one has mentioned hydrogen fuel cell. No diesel at all. You could carry extra hydrogen tanks like you used to carry diesel. One electric motor, solar panels and a hydrogen fuel cell to produce electric. All you would need then is a hydrogen fill up station at every dock. (and that is why we will never have hydrogen powered cars or boats)
A new sailboat could be easily designed to have the top part of the the keel as battery storage, but to retro fit it would be too extensive.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Safety

As I read one of the articles out there on the web the developer indicated that using 400 volts DC was causing them some fits. A 400 volt battery bank is not something that your average boater is going to be able to mess with and not electrocute him/herself. You will not get a second chance with 400 volts. I pitty the poor chap that happens to be swiming when it shorts to ground through the shaft. Lots of issues that have to be addressed during development that add nothing to the preformance of the system.
There is not much hope of lowering the voltage due to the power-amp relationship. The motor would be truly enormous at 12 volts due to thousand amp wiring.
The guy/gal who makes this a drop in arrangement with two terminals for 12 volts out, three terminals for 110 volts AC out, a prop shaft connection and mounting bolts will make it a reality.

 

[Bill Roosa]

400 volt battery bank

After viewing the teslacar web site, I guess that there is not a REQUIRMENT for a high voltage battery bank. You could turn DC to AC and transform it to high voltage for your AC motor!! That could easily be packaged for safety.

 

[Jim]

I have a freind that has been looking into this for some time. It is a pipe dream unless you have more money than brains.

 

[Ross]

I burn less than 10 gallons of diesel per year. Where would I find a profit in solar?