Drogues

[Roger Long]

These people seem to have a good chainplate system for the drogue. http://www.morganscloud.com/indepth/inhwpart2.html#droguelaunch

Wow. Fantastic site. A must read for anyone whose read this thread. Thanks for the link.

Highlights were:

Finding out that my former landlord, client (My company designed one of his fishing boats from the fiberglass shell in.), and next office neighbor became a serious and experienced sailor in later years. He is quoted.

The quote by people saying that a garden hose coiled up with the ends connected together and let out on an anchor rode through the coil was the best drogue they ever had. That may be enough for me as I plan mostly near coastal cruising. If get tired of Newfoundland and make that trip to Scotland, I'm thinking now I'll just buy the Jordan drogue. It isn't as large as I thought for a 32 foot boat (thanks Franklin). In the kind of emergency pinch I've been thinking about, you probably could use it like a rope, just making sure the cones are pointed the right direction, say, while towing.

 

[Prime Time]

Nothing like experience!

What kind of boat did you use the drogue on and what were the conditions?

Having done a fair bit of research into this, including speaking with Don Jordan several times, I would recommend the JSD, rather than a parachute-type sea anchor. A sea anchor, by definition, will impose far greater shock loads on the boat. It can, if not deployed properly fail to open or foul itself on the trip line, which most parachute sea anchors have. Also, the points about the boat still wanting to horse around while on a sea anchor deployed off the bow is still a very valid one.

The JSD, has a few attributes that make is much better for the boat and the crew, especially in a survival-storm situation. First, the long length and small cones allow the JSD to gradually load up as the slack is taken out of the series drogue's rode. This means that the shock loads are much lower—reducing the chances of damage to the boat's hardware. Second, the boat is oriented stern to the wind, which makes it less likely to horse around—this is especially true of modern fin keel designs. Third, the JSD is designed to be a "fire-and-forget" device of last resort—giving the crew a chance to rest in relative safety. And finally, since it is deployed off the stern of the boat, does NOT REQUIRE someone to go forward to deploy it in storm conditions, as most parachute anchors would.

The main problem with the JSD is retrieval. It is a bear to retreive unless you're in dead calm conditions. To retrieve it, I recommend having two long lines that are lead forward to snatch blocks near the bow, that are long enough to come back to the stern of the boat and reach the winches. Tie one line to the JSD rode, and use the winch to pull that line all the way to the bow, retreiving about a boat length of drogue. Then tie the second line to the drogue and do the same. Then untie the first line and repeat. By using two long lines and retreiving nearly a boat length at a time, you can reduce the amount of effort and time it takes to retreive the drogue. If you have two people aboard, one can be untying the lines at the bow and running them back to the cockpit, while the other is winching.

BTW, the JSD really needs to have its own set of "chainplates" added to the boat for it to fasten to, as most cleats aren't really up to the task IMHO. When making a bluewater passage, the drogue should be stored, with the bridle attached to the chainplates, in a bag or locker near the stern of the boat—ready to deploy.

I have used a JSD and have practiced deploying and retrieving it on several boats, including my own. They're bulky and a PITA to retreive, but by all accounts, including some from friends of mine—they're worth it in a bad storm.

 

[sailingdog]

The first time I've used one was when I was crewing on my friend Emily's grandfather's Cross trimaran, back in the early 80s. Her grandfather had one aboard based on his discussions with Don Jordan, and coming up from Delaware to Block Island, off the NJ coast, we got caught by a late spring storm. Don't remember what the conditions were, but they were bad—first time I'd ever seen my friend's grandfather nervous about being out on the water. That trip is one of the main reasons I looked into the JSD and have become a big advocate of them.

Been on three or four other boats and used a JSD since then... but that first time was probably the worst conditions I've used one under.

What kind of boat did you use the drogue on and what were the conditions?

 

[Warren Milberg]

My experience while trying to retieve a deployed JSD while coming back across the Gulf Stream from Bermuda on a 42-footer was that it was near impossible to do. At one point, we considered just cutting it loose. While this drogue worked well the previous day in high wind/wave conditions, you need very low winds and waves to bring it back aboard -- conditions that normally do not exist for some time after you would have deployed the drogue. We had 6 people on the boat and it took 3 of us almost all day to get the JSD back on board. If we were single handling, or short on crew, it would have been impossible.

 

[sailingdog]

Warren—

The technique I described for retrieving it earlier in this thread works pretty well and can be done even single-handed. I'd recommend you try it. It is based on what Don Jordan recommended.

 

[catsailor]

I love the idea of the JSD, but...

What good is a system I cannot retrieve shorthanded when it is still blustery? It is common to need to get moving again, to avoid what ever is coming next. Or perhaps you are getting a little close to a lee shore, it has lightened up, and it is time to sail. I have used a sea anchor and getting it back on-board once the wind was down to 25 knots was a walk in the park.

Setting a sea anchor in the teeth of a gale sucks. Absolutely. Many monohulls will not be happy on a sea anchor - I believe that makes sense.

I am not saying it can't be done with effort, but I would like to hear of a way to do it easily in 25 knots, and I presume the main problem is unloading the cones. On a sea anchor that is done with the engine (I use a partial trip line - a full lines potential to tangle scares me, correctly or not). What if - and this may be dumb - the engines were put in reverse to unload the JSD to the extent practical? Engines often do not have good power in reverse, there is a danger of running over the lines, but it would not be required to stop the boat or back-up; just reduce the load.

Please post a better idea. As I said, I like the logic of the JSD.

 

[newly anonymous]

that would not be an option I'd consider

What if - and this may be dumb - the engines were put in reverse to unload the JSD to the extent practical?

Even considering the $1,500 cost of a series drogue for my size boat, I'd sooner cut it loose than risk the possibility of wrapping it around my prop during a passage.

A better option would be to run the drogue until the point where you feel comfortable heaving to, and then retrieve it once the boat is hove.

 

[Rick D]

Dang, NA...

"A better option would be to run the drogue until the point where you feel comfortable heaving to, and then retrieve it once the boat is hove."[/QUOTE]

I guess that's why you have a PHD, huh? What a simple and seemingly obvious answer.

 

[catsailor]

Even considering the $1,500 cost of a series drogue for my size boat, I'd sooner cut it loose than risk the possibility of wrapping it around my prop during a passage.

A better option would be to run the drogue until the point where you feel comfortable heaving to, and then retrieve it once the boat is hove.

Agreed completely. Hence the challenge to the group. Heck, it isn't just the money - I may need the darn thing again in a few days, and UPS won't get me one.

 

[catsailor]

I stongly suspect heaving to with a JSD on your tail would be a trick...

"A better option would be to run the drogue until the point where you feel comfortable heaving to, and then retrieve it once the boat is hove."

I guess that's why you have a PHD, huh? What a simple and seemingly obvious answer.[/quote]

So you would have to warp it to the bow? Which is going to make winching a little odd, and also the boat will now be traveling slowly to one side, which may be a complicating factor. Again, not easy unless calm.

 

[Franklin]

JSD retrival

The black and red line at the end of it represents kind of what the drogue is to look like under medium load. I wonder if you replaced the 15lb chain (the red tail) with a retrival line with the 15 lb chain in the middle of it, if that would produce the same weight on the end of it. From a previous thread I realize that the angle determines the tension and an angle of about 130 produces the same tension on both ends as the weight applied.

Maybe make the retrival line a lightweight 1/4" with a 5 lb weight in the middle and 10 lb chain on the end of the drogue.

If this could be done, then you could put a retrival line at the end of the drogue ona a swival shackle. It shouldn't drift under the boat. It shouldn't get tangled in the drogue. It shouldn't cause any troubles for the system.

I know Mr. Jordan makes it clear not to use a retrival line but maybe he didn't think of this setup. I bet there is a way to use a retrival line safetly that doesn't hinder the effectiveness of the drogue but makes retrival a breeze.

Thoughts?

 

[maxingout]

On my Privilege 39 catamaran, I carried an 18 foot diameter parachute, a 120 cone series drogue, and I used an improvised Abbott drogue.

During our circumnavigation, I used the parachute only one time 300 miles north of New Zealand in a winter storm. I used the Abbott drogue one time in a storm between Gibraltar and the Canary Islands. I never needed to use the series drogue.

If you would like to read more of how I use parachutes and drogues, you can check out the following URLs:
http://www.maxingout.com/storm_management.htm
http://www.maxingout.com/abbott_drogue.htm

They offer a perspective on how those types of devices work on a medium size catamaran.

 

[Franklin]

Or.....there is another idea. You can tie a line to one end of the bridal, around the bow and back to the cockpit. Then release the bridal so now you are bow to. Then turn the engine on and motor towards it as you pull in the line from the cockpit. I used to do this all the time with my anchor rode but after getting the deck all dirty from the mud on the line, I gave it up.

 

[newly anonymous]

you're starting to sound like one of my students, Rick!

I guess that's why you have a PHD, huh? What a simple and seemingly obvious answer.

and while I don't claim to have an advanced degree in storm tactics, its seems that:

1. there should be no reason why a series drogue would impair the process of heaving to. Once the boat slows to a stop, the drogue will merely dangle, will it not? and;

2. I've seen in the literature that one of the advantages of a Jordan series drogue is that it can be winched aboard. (Yet another good reason for launching it astern rather than from the bow.)

 

[sailingdog]

and while I don't claim to have an advanced degree in storm tactics, its seems that:

1. there should be no reason why a series drogue would impair the process of heaving to. Once the boat slows to a stop, the drogue will merely dangle, will it not? and;

Yes, this is probably true, and the drogue should be mostly vertical at this point.

2. I've seen in the literature that one of the advantages of a Jordan series drogue is that it can be winched aboard. (Yet another good reason for launching it astern rather than from the bow.)

You can't use a JSD on a winch unless you don't mind destroying the JSD. The cones get caught under the adjacent wraps of line and then tear as you try and remove the line from the winch. That is why I highly recommend using two long lines led forward to snatch blocks to retrieve the drogue. It really isn't too bad if you can retreive 20-25' of drogue at a time. IMHO, the biggest mistake people make is using a shorter line directly to the winches to do the retreival. This means you spend a much greater percentage of your time tying the retrieval lines to the drogue—rather than winching in the drogue. Using a longer line led forward means you can retreive a greater length of drogue and end up tying fewer knots.

 

[newly anonymous]

a web reference on retrieval

You can't use a JSD on a winch unless you don't mind destroying the JSD. The cones get caught under the adjacent wraps of line and then tear as you try and remove the line from the winch.

check out jordanseriesdrogue.com they have a section on retrieval that suggests that winching is possible without damage to the cones. I suspect that the type and size of your winches will make a big difference. my spinnaker primaries are Antal 48s, and I suspect that they would be able to bring in a jsd without needing multiple wraps, especially working in series. but those winches have superior friction to your average lewmar winch.

some good info on that site, including the sad news that Don Jordon passed away this past November at the age of 92.

 

[newly anonymous]

Hey Maxingout!

During our circumnavigation, I used the parachute only one time 300 miles north of New Zealand in a winter storm. I used the Abbott drogue one time in a storm between Gibraltar and the Canary Islands. I never needed to use the series drogue.
.

I see you've just posted for the first time on this site. Someone with your cruising experience is always welcome over here. I've read your posts on that other site that so many seem to be abandoning recently, and have always enjoyed your insights.

 

[sailingdog]

Damn, I hadn't heard that... He was a really nice guy, at least in my experience from my conversations with him.

...
some good info on that site, including the sad news that Don Jordon passed away this past November at the age of 92.

 

[Franklin]

No responses on post #91 or #93?

If either one of those is issue free, then it solves the problem of retrival.

 

[Roger Long]

I bet there is a way to use a retrival line safetly that doesn't hinder the effectiveness of the drogue but makes retrival a breeze. Thoughts?

That's a very clever idea in your sketch. I bet it would work but I wouldn't want to be the first one to try it.

I expect Jordan doesn't like retrieval lines because of the risk of collapsing the cones and the huge snarl if the whole thing spiraled. Your idea should work but, if the high resistance should pull the lines together and wrap them, you would have to cut it loose.

It's odd that some people report no problem with retrieval and other that it's a big deal. I wonder if different skill levels working with heavy loads and patience to wait for the slacks and pulling it in in increments are a factor. I would also expect large vessels to have steadier pull, in addition to the inherently larger loads, because of being larger in proportion to the waves. Retrieval, at least in the early stages, may also be more a matter of pulling the vessel to the drogue rather than pulling the drogue in.

Does everyone assume that the engine will not be operable after riding to a drogue?