Experience

[NotCook]

To some extent we are confusing experience with skill or knowledge. I have to agree with the Captain Rob and avnbuf that you can have good experience and bad experience. Both are experience. I like to use the definition, "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." But that refers mainly to bad experience. Then there are skill and knowledge. We get those by studying, practice, and learning from both, as well as our experience. Maybe the original question should have been, "How do you measure skill?" That seems to be the question that most people are responding to. Pat has experience, but not necessarily good skills and knowledge.

I do agree that she had guts!

Brian

 

[spuki]

There seems to be some confusion here between experience, learning and measuring the amount of experience.

Depending on a number of possible variables, you can either learn from your experiences or not. Of course, you must have the experience, which requires being in the situation that allows you to have it.

Learning is another matter. You can try to increase your knowledge in any number of ways before trying or doing, which is highly recommended. I think trying or doing reinforces the knowledge and turns it into experience.

Of course, some people skip trying to become knowledgable and just do it. Do they have experience? YES! Are they knowledgable? H-M-M-M, TO A VARYING DEGREE!

I have always strove to teach myself throughout my career. I can also tell you that I have almost always felt that there are holes in my knowledge. That becomes painfully clear when you are in a situation that exposes a gap in your knowledge. This constitutes an experience that can be learned from or ignored.

There may not be a perfect way to learn, but your knowledge can give you an edge, and keep you from depending solely on luck. I suspect the author was overstating the lack of knowledge, either unintentionally or intentionally. After all, can you actually learn solely by experience? Did she ever talk to other sailors or read a book or magazine article? Rubbing elbows with the experienced can have the result of having that knowledge rub off on you.

How much experience has someone had? Perhaps providence only knows! On the other hand, if someone has sailed around the world, it seems reasonable that they have had a reasonable amount of it. There maybe something to gain from listening to their story.

 

[Franklin]

Pat's miles before her solo journey was long open water trips. What I failed to realize at first, was that all those trips were on a 50' tri-hulled boat and it always had several crew members. So I guess looking back, she didn't know about pointing because they don't point on those boats. And it's possible she didn't know about good helmsmanship during heavy weather because she may have not been given the helm then. She did talk about experiencing heavy weather but didn't go into her role on the boat during it.

But she still should have known the importance of having good sails and a sizable kitty, for repairs at least.

But seems things worked out for her and with the help of fellow cruisers, she was able to support herself while she learned to become a good artist (the fellow cruisers would buy her art because they knew she needed money).

I just hope others who read her book don't think they can set sail with old sails and no money. I too want to do that trip...actually, even more destinations, but I don't think I can go until I have atleast $80,000 in the bank and all new equipment on the boat. I've gotten most of the equipment now, I just need to save for the kitty and this year I should get a sizable chunk of it.

Well, I'm off to sail to South Padre now so I'm signing off this thread. Happy New Year all.

BTW: I do agree, it's skill that should be measured, not experience, but I keep hearing all the time "I have n years" or "I have n miles under my keel" and it drives me nuts. I really don't care. I care about knowledge and skill. So well put who ever said that.

 

[TimCup]

When are you "experienced" enough?

Franklin, you make valid points about her lack of money, and old sails, but as for her experience, I'm not sure, and here's why:

You don't know what you don't know.

Basically, what I'm saying is, given her many miles of sailing experience, she may have thought she had the needed knowledge. We never know where the voids in our knowledge are. Was she right? I've known a lot of sailors that did some really stupid things ( not me, of course!), but didn't publish their mistakes, so who knows??

We can wait until we have all the equipment, all the money, all the experience. But when, exactly will that be? If someone wants to take a seaworthy boat around the world, God bless 'em. Smart people do stupid things, too. Even the Titanic sank. I, for one, am jealous. Not because I haven't done it, but because I don't have her stones..


cup

ps-Maine, I'm gonna let that crack go about newbie Maine sailors being better than newbie Florida sailors!

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Clearly, experience is a form of knowledge and, as such, inherently valuable.

However, there are largely random, mostly accidental ways of becoming an "experienced" sailor (lets call it the OMG-method) and there are purpose-driven ways (let's call that TRAINING).

With a little luck, OMG experiences may teach people how to avoid getting into the same mess again. This may not sound ideal but certainly beats learning nothing at all.

Training sounds a lot better; usually takes time and money; and tends to work well for well-defined, repetitive tasks such as steering a ferry-boat across the same river.

In practice, however, the situations sailors have/are trained for may differ significantly from what they subsequently encounter in real life. In which case, training simply becomes and elaborate prelude to the OMG-method after all.

Of course, sailors are not the only people who are facing the dilemma how to properly train for what is essentially "the great unknown". A workable solution found in many areas of human endeavor is to emphasize cross-training in parallel with task-specific training.

Useful cross-training for cruisers includes kearning to use and fix hardware items ranging from engines, pumps, refrigerators, solar panels, batteries and radios to heads, cameras and autopilots (just to name a few) plus software varying from navigation, communication and weather prediction to recreation and meditation.

If that sounds like a tall order, just concentrate on knowing how to use a 12" multifunction color display, an EPIRB, a life raft and a tri-corder

Have fun

 

[mitiempo]

Recently I watched the dvd "Deep Water", the story of the Sunday Times singlehanded round the world race in 1969. The main story is about Donald Crowhurst and his ill fated voyage. It's a well done documentary. Included are the stories of the other sailors in the race. One didn't even know how to sail - he left England by following a friend for the first few miles, copying his friend's actions as to raising sails etc! After a few miles he basically knew how to sail and continued until he gave up in the south Atlantic after deciding his 30' weekend cruiser wasn't cut out for the trip. This wasn't a person without sea experience- the previous year he and a companion (who also was in this race) had rowed across the north Atlantic. His name is Chay Blyth and he succeeded two years later in British Steel, a 59' steel ketch the wrong way around non-stop, becoming the first person to do so. He became one of the world's most famous singlehanded sailors after this almost bumbling start. There are many more cases of people starting out without any real experience and surviving, some most famously. I guess luck plays a big part, but preparation is to a certain extent what creates the luck.
By the way, I recommend this dvd highly, great true story about the beginners in this risky type of adventure.

 

[sailingdog]

Don't confuse experience with skills... A person can have a lot of experience at doing something but still have little in the way of any real skill at doing it.

 

[Bob Poff]

Experience Holes

An infamous example of holes in his experience is Capt. E.J. Smith of the Titanic. Years and thousands of miles underway. Comodore of the White Star Line. Definitely qualified as "an old salt". While he had been through other incidents, never something of that magnitude. Admitedly rare indeed. Did he make the correct descisons?
I'm certainly no judge.

I have to come back to an individuals powers of judgement. Again using Smith. In Cherbourg Titanic's draw pulled the New York off her moorings. They nearly collided. Smith had been through another some what similar incident with Olympic. In that case, sucking in a british warship that did actually hit Olympic. Wouldn't prudence say that after having that experience, while manuvering Titanic in port he would give the hydraulic draw of the ship on nearby vessels more consideration?

Using another Titanic example. How experience can work against you.
After the collision with the iceburg, Murdoch called for engines full stop, then full reverse. Opposed to calling for full reverse straight away. Why? His experience told him that crashing straight to reverse from full ahead could damage the engines/drive train. In a moments consideration a valid concern. So while the engines were stopped she lost precious time and distance.

So how do you measure skill? I agree with the statment that "I have x miles", or "x years" drives me crazy. I've been sailing now for 13 years.
Do I consider myself qualified? Maybe. Maybe not. Depends on where you're talking about. I'm certainly not ready to point my boat down the Chesapeake and head for the open ocean.

I read an article in Lats & Atts recently about having an attitude for learning.
(may have been Tania's article) Keeping the attitude of "I can learn something from anyone" I would think goes a long way to keeping you alive.

<END OF RAMBLE>

 

[tomtone]

like this

I can't wait to try this out and make some! Your answer sure makes good sense to me!!

In the simplest of tasks I can tell you step by step how to do it. But if you haven't assembled the tools and material and applied what you heard you don't "KNOW" how to do. For example: a simple batch of biscuits. 2 cups of flour, 1 tablespoon of baking powder, 1/2 teaspoon salt, 1/3 cup of cold fat(lard, crisco, or poultry ) rubbed into the flour mix. Add 2/3-3/4 cup of milk, mix until it comes together in a ball, spread a little flour on the table and press the ball of dough flat (about 3/4 inch thick ) fold in half and press again shape the dough into a neat edge and fold one more time and press flat cut into rounds and place close together on an oven safe pan and bake at 400 degrees for about 20 minutes .
I can start from a clean kitchen and have biscuits in the oven in five minutes, and have the mess cleaned up before they are done. Now you have knowledge but if you haven't done this you have no experience. However I do recommend that you try this and have a little butter and a jar of jelly ready when they come out.

 

[Ross]

I was thinking about this thread today while visiting with my 14 year old grand daughter. She is my favorite young person in this world. I realized that experience can impart knowledge almost instantly. Give a child a hammer and a handful of 6d nails and warn him to be careful not to hit his thumb. He might hear you but he will know why after the first whack.

 

[MoonSailer]

Progressive experience. If you have 30 years experience sailing on a 10 mile lake that is not the same as experience sailing in the Gulf of Mexico. If you only sail on nice days then you have no experience on bad days. Experience is not time or miles it is new experiences. Reading can impart knowledge but reading about survival in a gale is not in any way experiencing a gale at sea. There is something different about sitting in a recliner by the fire drinking a hot drink while reading about a storm at sea than the actual experience of being at sea during a storm. Same thing about anything. reading about someones first solo flight in a small airplane is NOTHING like the real event. I loved my first solo flight!!!! But the realization that I was up there alone with my life depending upon my skills is different than reading about it.

 

[spuki]

I couldn't agree more!

Progressive experience. If you have 30 years experience sailing on a 10 mile lake that is not the same as experience sailing in the Gulf of Mexico. If you only sail on nice days then you have no experience on bad days. Experience is not time or miles it is new experiences. Reading can impart knowledge but reading about survival in a gale is not in any way experiencing a gale at sea. There is something different about sitting in a recliner by the fire drinking a hot drink while reading about a storm at sea than the actual experience of being at sea during a storm. Same thing about anything. reading about someones first solo flight in a small airplane is NOTHING like the real event. I loved my first solo flight!!!! But the realization that I was up there alone with my life depending upon my skills is different than reading about it.

 

[Ross]

Reading about sex isn't the same as experiencing sex but it can go a long way in helping you to know what goes where.
Reading about storm survival will go a long way to helping you know what you should do and what you should not do.

 

[MoonSailer]

Ross I never said that reading was a bad thing just that it was not is not the same as experience. For one thing even two people on the same boat at the same time will have different experiences. Just as a woman would experience sex differently than a man.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Reading and expierence

I suspect that there are two kinds of folks:
Those that can read a book and then go do it almost perfectly
and
Those who read a book and don't really understand until they do it a few times. They then write a book about it:dance:.

So some folks will place reading at a higher priority than doing when you talk experience. Course, there are things where reading is the preferred way to get the experience and things where doing them is the preferred way. Avoiding/surviving a storm and life saving skills are clearly better learned from a book while trimming sails is one of those things that eludes even the best book writer due to the large number of different boats, winds, seas,...... that have to be accounted for.

 

[bdegouw]

I always thought I was well prepared in every venture with my boat......sadly I made many mistakes.......but thankfully I lived through them and now feel that the mistakes were the greatest teacher for me.They are usually never repeated and invariably makes you a safer boater because you are reminded that you're not the best after all and the next mistake maybe fatal.

 

[MoonSailer]

Bill you can obtain information by reading....but the only experience you gain while reading is experience reading. reading is not experience sailing!!!!! Obviously you need to read some to have a knowledge base to use when you experience sailing or most any complex activity. But reading about sailing is not sailing!!!!! sailing today was a mix of frustration and pleasure. It rained a little but was warm and we had some wind but more light and varible winds except for about 1 hour. We had a barge pass us pretty close and kept me nervous until it passed. I experienced sailing today you read about my experience sailing today. A sip of brandy mid afternoon felt good on my scratchy throat. I experienced the taste of the brandy and the itchy throat..you read about my experience.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Reading vs expierance

MoonSailor
I think we are in violent agreement. Reading is not a replacement for experience. As I always say:

"A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with a theory"

However, trying to get all your experience via doing can be unsafe, expensive, and unpleasant. RE: I know, lets go out in a storm so we can get some really good MOB practice. There are some things I don't want to have an experience doing and would be happy as pig in stink to read about how to avoid them. The two go hand in hand as a smart way to reduce the number of unsafe, expensive, and unpleasant experiences you have while sailing. They also help to reduce the severity/length of those unpleasant experiences and enable a rapid return to pleasant activities.

This is along the line of though Ross posted but he said it better.

 

[Roger Long]

Here's my take on the subject:

Experience is useless until turned into judgement, skill, and an ability to predict outcomes of various options. Individuals' ability to process the raw material of experience into these varies greatly. Some can derive almost nothing from a huge store of experience and others can turn a relatively small amount of experience into a significant degree of competence. The same is true of education.

Good judgement will get you through a deficit in experience better than experience will get your through a deficit in judgement.

 

[tommays]

Exp

I dont generaly learn much from reading without doing what it is i am reading about it is just the way my brain works

In sailing i learned the most from crewing on long distance races because so many things happen when your on a moving boat 24/7 and have to deal with all the weather changes

You can read about sailing in 50+ knots winds all you want BUT untill you get caught in them during a cold spring race you will never understand what it takes OUT of your body and how diffcult everything becomes after 24 hours of being cold and wet