How Wings, Sails, Keels, and Rudders Really Work.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Go back and read your post from 6:00 pm and tell me where you say anything about no air moving downward?
I will be more respectful to you. Please try to do the same for me and others.
IF you are smarter than me that's good for you, but for you to imply it is tacky.
 
T

tsmwebb

Ah!

I see what you're getting at. That's not really 2D at all and the displacement is infinitesimal, I agree, in a theoretical, very 3D airfoil. :)
Yup, that it.

The key is the word section. By definition a foil section is a slice of an infinite span foil. And, also by agreement, the theoretical flow around that section is called a 2d flow. As you suggest these usages may be slightly different from general use. I think it's all part of an evil plot :)

--Tom.
 
Dec 26, 2008
15
None None Vancouver
Yup, that it.

The key is the word section. By definition a foil section is a slice of an infinite span foil. And, also by agreement, the theoretical flow around that section is called a 2d flow. As you suggest these usages may be slightly different from general use. I think it's all part of an evil plot :)

--Tom.
That is a horrible pun.

:D
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Hey guys... can we cool it with the bad behavior... before the mods have to step in.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
The displacement is accounted for by the wing theory as tip vortexes; the math works nicely that way.
Yes, ever noticed how most of the water you are pushing backwards with the oars of your dinghy ends up going around in little whirlpools? After the energy has been expended to start it moving backwards, the fact that it starts going around in circles isn't very significant.

The mass and acceleration of previously still water moved backwards equals the work to keep the dinghy working against its skin friction, wave making, and air resistance. The pressure differential on the two sides of the oar blades exactly balances out with the resistance although it's more complicated because of the intermittent application due to return strokes.

Tip vortexes are more complicated because they are also composed of "leakage" of the pressure differential around the end of the foil. They can also be seen as the overall circulation "turning the corner" at the end of the foil. Foil and oar vortexes complicate the simplification of air or water being moved in a direction opposite that of motion or acceleration of gravity but it takes a lot of work to create these vortexes and that's an essential part of the energy balance.

Oar vortexes drift slowly backwards relative to the water. Wing tip vortexes on aircraft gradually drift downwards due to the overall downwards air impulse. I know very well that they drift downwards because I used to fly a small plane in and out of a commercial airport and knowing how to predict the fall and drift of the vortexes was essential to staying alive and much discussed by my flight instructors. I hit a well decayed one unexpectedly passing an airport. It was like running over a 4 x 4 on the highway and the plane was well above our altitude.
 
Nov 22, 2008
3,562
Endeavour 32 Portland, Maine
In fact, his comment about "huffing gas" is still there. :(
And the equal and opposite reaction to the huffed gas along with the pressure differential inextricably linked to it is a downward force on the character of this excellent group.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Alan, the huffing gas thing was funny. However the rest of the stuff we were saying was getting mean. I'm really a pretty nice guy for the most part but can come off as a jerk sometimes. And yes a little Napolean syndrome can creap in.
Send me a private message or call me 210-845-9855 if you want to talk about anything further. I'm on here alot and want to have peaceful, respectful debates and learning experiences with everyone here including you.
 
Dec 26, 2008
15
None None Vancouver
Alan, the huffing gas thing was funny. However the rest of the stuff we were saying was getting mean. I'm really a pretty nice guy for the most part but can come off as a jerk sometimes. And yes a little Napolean syndrome can creap in.
Send me a private message or call me 210-845-9855 if you want to talk about anything further. I'm on here alot and want to have peaceful, respectful debates and learning experiences with everyone here including you.
Scott, I appreciate the olive branch. We all have moments we're less than proud of.

I tend to simply be too direct about my disagreement, and if I seemed dismissive, I apologize.

So peace, and a Happy New Year to you and yours. :)

Alan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.