Just a little strange

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May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Pulled the boat Monday to do a long overdue bottom job. ( Seidelman 37 ) Have a very strange situation with blisters. There are about a gazillion tiny blisters on the port side, but only half way back.
They start out so thick looks like measels. As you go towards the stern, they taper off slowly, and by the time you get to the center of the boat, no more blisters. Going down, they taper off, but are still evident until the bottom centerline. After of the center of the boat, there is not a single blister. The starboard side has not a single blister. All are from very small to very tiny. Most about the size of a straight pin, with a very few as big as the lead in a number 2 pencil. My assumption is that someone was asleep at the wheel during initial layup of the boat. Every blister problem I have ever seen, which is not a lot, has been over the entire bottom. Anyone else ever see such a thing.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Scrape them a bit and see what is inside.
 
Jun 1, 2005
772
Pearson 303 Robinhood, ME
You need to tell us more. Is the boat new to you? Age? Has the bottom been done before? Do you know the history of the boat?

I looked at a mid 80's Pearson 303 that had been Awl gripped. It had small blisters over the entire topsides! I walked away from that one.

Can't help you out... but Good luck.
 
Jun 2, 2004
1,438
Oday 25 pittsburgh
Nice N Easy, sounds like it may just be paint.

Are you sure it is Gelcoat?
If it is paint, my guess is the bottom paint was shaken,(or whipped) not stirred....
Hope this is an easy one for you,
r.w.landau
 
Jan 27, 2007
383
Irwin 37' center cockpit cleveland ohio
Are the "blisters" really blisters in the hull, or are they in the bottom paint?
Robert had "blisters" under his pads, which we saw when they raised the boat to splash it in the Spring.
Saw one boat where the port side was full of blisters, and holes. Looked like someone shot it with a shotgun, from a distance. Turned out the boat was hit by lightning, and the extreme heat burst the air gaps in the hull.
Scrape the blister. Does it smell? I think it's suppose to smell like vinegar, if it's a blister.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Definately blisters

These are definately blisters. I have popped some of them, some popped when sanding. A tiny amount of liquid inside, and it does smell. Not sure if it smells like vinegar, but it isn't a pleasant odor. Boat is an 81 model, and this is the first bottom job I have done, but is has been done several times before. Something over two years since it has been out of the water. Has a couple of coats of a hard bottom paint, under some ablative. A lot of small blisters appear to have been repaired before, but there are still plenty for me to fix. I don't think it is any big deal, as they are very small, and all are very shallow. Mostly just curious if anyone has ever seen blisters isolated to a certain area of the bottom.
 

RAD

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Jun 3, 2004
2,330
Catalina 30 Bay Shore, N.Y.
Maybe from the last paint job and there might have been some sort of contamination on the brush or roller and by the time that small area got painted the paint was all good.
just guessing
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
If they're in the gelcoat, and not the bottom paint, and filled with a nasty smelling liquid...they're osmotic blisters more likely than not.
 
Jun 1, 2005
772
Pearson 303 Robinhood, ME
My guess... it is from a previous bottom job gone astray. I have owned a boat with bottom paint for +/- 2 years... so disregard anything I might say.

That is why I am leery about attempting a bottom job on my boat! No blisters... but the paint is a foot and a half thick.

I guess when it is all said and done if you are down to the glass... make sure you prep and get the required amount of barrier coats on.

Hope it is an easy fix for you.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Easy

I had a very similar situation with mine. I had 9 large blisters, 2" to 5" diameter, on the starboard side. Also there were other repairs on that side of the boat, aparently from previous blisters. On the portsdie, there were no blisters and only one or two spots that I could see that were ever repaired.
I have read alot of theories on blisters and repaired my own. The blisters on one side of the boat could be because of the sun hitting that side of the boat more over the years. I don't think this is the case though. My best guess is exactly what you thought. Something was done wrong during the lay up. Either the resin wasn't mixed properly or it was of an inferior quality.
The term 'osmotic fluid' has been tossed around. I'm not really sure what that means because when you cut open a blister it smells like vinegar, not sea water. Also fibergalss resin is supposed to be water proof. So, even if there is moisture in the fiberglass, it is not supposed to react with the water. In the blisters on my boat, they were large enough that I could examine their anatomy. The fiberglass mat was there but the resin was liquified around it. I wish I would have saved some of that fluid, I could have taken it to the college and had a qualitaive anaysis done to see what it's made of. Also whatever it is, it evaporates much faster than water. Since water is definitely part of the mix, becasue you don't see blisters on cars or RVs, there must have been a chemical reaction that included the water.
Also it is not very useful to barrier coat the bottom thinking that will fix it. The water is in the hull already with the fiberglass resin which apprently isn't waterproof anymore. Sealing the water in won't help. If you don't want to see more blisters you probably have to dry out the hull, then seal it.
For me, I am not that concerned with moisture in the fiberglass below the water line. High moisture in the cored areas of the boat is a different story. There you get rotted plywood if the moisture is too high. I do plan to dry my boat out and then barrier coat, but right now I am more concerned with using it.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
...The term 'osmotic fluid' has been tossed around. I'm not really sure what that means because when you cut open a blister it smells like vinegar, not sea water. Also fibergalss resin is supposed to be water proof.
I'm not sure where you got your information, but polyester and vinylester resins are not waterproof. They are very resistant to water, but water will travel through either resin very slowly via osmosis. Also, some of the chemicals and compounds in uncured resins are water soluble.

So, even if there is moisture in the fiberglass, it is not supposed to react with the water. In the blisters on my boat, they were large enough that I could examine their anatomy. The fiberglass mat was there but the resin was liquified around it. I wish I would have saved some of that fluid, I could have taken it to the college and had a qualitaive anaysis done to see what it's made of. Also whatever it is, it evaporates much faster than water. Since water is definitely part of the mix, becasue you don't see blisters on cars or RVs, there must have been a chemical reaction that included the water.
Also it is not very useful to barrier coat the bottom thinking that will fix it. The water is in the hull already with the fiberglass resin which apprently isn't waterproof anymore. Sealing the water in won't help. If you don't want to see more blisters you probably have to dry out the hull, then seal it.
Barrier coating is a fix, provided the hull laminate is given time to dry out properly. If the hull laminate isn't given time to dry out, then barrier coating makes no sense, since the laminate will probably still blister further due to the water still in the laminate. In the most serious cases, the gel coat and outer are mechanically peeled, using a laminate planer...and the hull is left to dry out, often with the use of heat lamps and vacuum bagging to accelerate the process.

For me, I am not that concerned with moisture in the fiberglass below the water line. High moisture in the cored areas of the boat is a different story. There you get rotted plywood if the moisture is too high. I do plan to dry my boat out and then barrier coat, but right now I am more concerned with using it.
BTW, most boats aren't cored with plywood. Plywood is the worst of the core materials—as it has the worst characteristics of end-grain balsa and foam—the two materials normally used for cored laminates. It is also far heavier than either end-grain balsa and foam.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
saildog

What's got your hackles in a rise dog?
MY information came from the front of the can of polyester resin. Where did yours come from?

As to your second quote, you just rearranged my words, not sure where you were going, but it appears you are supporting my point/opinion??? Except you claim 'barrier coating is a fix." Are you gauranteeing 100% of the time any boat dried and barrier coated will NEVER blister again anywhere? Bold statement, considering that water mixing with the problem prone resin is what caused the blisters and the boat being barrier coated is going to be submersed in water, and I doubt you are talking about barrier coating from the inside also.

My point is water is not the real problem. The real problem is crappy lay up/ crappy resin.
Do what you can to keep more water out but the water already there is the most immediate problem.

Don't attck plywood cause you got your underwear in a twist. It just so happens my boat is cored with plywood(the worst of all materials in the universe). I was voicing concerns over my boat. However wet end grain balsa rots when wet also, and foam deteriorates to mush.

Read slower and don't be so quick to hit submit.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Hermit Scott-

It is pretty well known that polyester resin is the most permeable of the resins commonly used to build boats. That is why most builders have used vinylester resins for the exterior most layers on newer boats, if they haven't gone to epoxy resins. Polyester resins are generally also the least expensive of the three resins. Epoxy resins are generally the strongest, the most expensive and the least permeable. However, epoxy resins have some other problems, such as having the lowest resistance to thermal deformation—this is why many epoxy-resin laminate products are required to be painted light colors.

As for barrier coating... it does work.. and is a fix—PROVIDED the hull laminate is allowed to dry out properly. This often involves peeling "crappy" laminate from the boat's hull and re-laminating with new layers of glass and resin—usually epoxy—to rebuild the hull to the original scantlings. That is why a hull peel, re-laminate and barrier coat costs so much.

I'm not attacking plywood... I'm merely stating facts about plywood as a core material. It is far heavier than the foams or end-grain balsa used in most cored laminates. It rots like the balsa and allows water to migrate and delaminate large areas like the foams can. In many cases, the laminate isn't actually made up with plywood as the primary core material—plywood was often used just at high-stress/high-load areas, since it has far greater strength than either foam or end-grain balsa. IIRC, the Catalina 30 used plywood in this manner.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Resin

Dog, I think we agree on the practicality of the cure to the blister problem. But skinning a boat is not drying out. That is completely replacing the crappy resin/lay up from the factory, provided the roving mesh underneath is good. On my boat I skinned much larger sections than necessary to try and replace as much as I could of the failed resin around the blisters. I believe that a complete skin out will solve the problem. But with good epoxy or resin you wouldn't have to worry about water disintegrating any components of the new skin. And I think barrier coating is a great idea provided the hull is dry, being new skin or just dried out well and not mechanically falling apart.
Permeable is one thing, but chemecally changing because water is present is another. A substance can be 'waterproof' and semi-permeable I guess. But it is not supposed to chemically change and turn from solid to liquid just because it's wet. Everyone seems to think that if water gets in the hull it WILL blister. That is just not the case.
I don't know as a fact but I am going to guess that my boat didn't come from the factory with a barrier coat. Because Frank Butler didn't expect it to fall apart when it got wet. Probably becasue he looked on the front of the can of resin he was using and it said 'waterproof'.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Dog, I think we agree on the practicality of the cure to the blister problem. But skinning a boat is not drying out.
Skinning a boat is often part of the drying out process... you can't dry out a boat that has gelcoat still on the laminate in any reasonable amount of time. In several cases I've seen, the gelcoat was peeled, but the laminate underneath was left intact. The repair on these boats didn't require additional re-glassing. Instead of being re-gelcoated, the boats were coated with an epoxy-based barrier coat.
That is completely replacing the crappy resin/lay up from the factory, provided the roving mesh underneath is good. On my boat I skinned much larger sections than necessary to try and replace as much as I could of the failed resin around the blisters. I believe that a complete skin out will solve the problem. But with good epoxy or resin you wouldn't have to worry about water disintegrating any components of the new skin. And I think barrier coating is a great idea provided the hull is dry, being new skin or just dried out well and not mechanically falling apart.
If the hull is mechanically falling apart... there's not much you can do except scrap the boat.
Permeable is one thing, but chemecally changing because water is present is another. A substance can be 'waterproof' and semi-permeable I guess. But it is not supposed to chemically change and turn from solid to liquid just because it's wet.
Unlike what you're suggesting, the GRP itself isn't changing state—the GRP isn't changing from a solid into a liquid. What is happening is pockets of fluid are collecting and forming and forcing apart the layers of GRP.

This is why bad osmotic blistering is considered a structural problem rather than just a cosmetic one. The water that has permeated the fiberglass collects in certain locations due to osmotic pressure created by water soluble chemical deposits being located there and forcing the layers of laminate apart—resulting in the blisters. This is also why the fluid in most blisters is under a fair amount of pressure—because the fluid has forced the surrounding laminate out of shape and the laminate wants to return to its former shape...applying pressure to the fluid inside the blister.

In many cases, the blistering occurs between the gelcoat and the underlying fiberglass—this is mostly a cosmetic problem since it isn't affecting the strength of the laminate to any real degree, and often due to contaminants in or on the gelcoat during the layup process. In the more unusual case, where the blisters occur between layers of laminate, it becomes a structural problem.

Everyone seems to think that if water gets in the hull it WILL blister. That is just not the case.
Some resins were worse than others... there was a run of Valiants in the 1970's that used a "fire-retardant" resin... and almost all the boats built using that resin have blistered at some point. The resin manufacturers are going to say it is waterproof... but in reality, even if it is mixed and laid up perfectly, it will allow some water through over time. The main difference is whether the water causes damage or not.

Some companies had more problems than others for some reason. It may have had to do with the specific resins they were using, or the techniques of layup they were using, but not all fiberglass hulls will have osmotic blistering problems.

I think that there are a large number of variables that all contribute to whether a specific boat will have osmotic blistering issues. One may be whether the interior was gelcoated or not. One may be whether the boat has a wet bilge or not. One is probably be the exact mix and composition of the resin used in the layup. Another is how well the temperature and humidity were controlled when the hull was being laid up. Another may be how much excess resin is in a specific hull.

A lot of these things were not understood at the time they started building fiberglass boats. Some are only being fully realized today. Back in the early days of fiberglass boat building, they built the hulls very thick and often used more resin that was optimal. Today, they often use less resin and build the hulls thinner, but engineer the hulls to be just as stiff and rigid as the older hulls by incorporating core materials and such.

I don't know as a fact but I am going to guess that my boat didn't come from the factory with a barrier coat. Because Frank Butler didn't expect it to fall apart when it got wet. Probably becasue he looked on the front of the can of resin he was using and it said 'waterproof'.
Yes, polyester resin is "waterproof" in that you can make things with it and expect the water to stay on one side of it or the other. However, individual water molecules do enter the resin and can possibly cause damage to it. If you made a bucket of polyester resin and fiberglass cloth, I'm sure you could use it to carry water... since, in the broader sense, it is waterproof, but don't mistake waterproof in the broader sense for water impermeable.
 
Jun 8, 2004
853
Pearson 26W Marblehead
blisters/paint

A post on this thread commented about small blisters and they may have been caused by
shaking the bottom paint as opposed to stirring. I really didnt know there was any difference.
Shaking or stirring? Ive got a 1975 pearson and have been shaking the paint for since I bought the boat 9 years ago. I use ablative paint. No blister period no water in the bilge either. Should I stop shaking and start stirring?
 

Tim R.

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May 27, 2004
3,626
Caliber 40 Long Range Cruiser Portland, Maine
Are you sure it is Gelcoat?
If it is paint, my guess is the bottom paint was shaken,(or whipped) not stirred....
Hope this is an easy one for you,
r.w.landau
Interesting. I have not heard this before either. I stir my paint with a rotary mixer on a cordless drill(for quite a few years). It is definitely introducing bubbles into the paint. Rolling it probably introduces bubbles too. It is an ablative.

Don Casey says:

"If the boatyard has a paint shaker, run it for at least 5 minutes to get the copper and the pigment evenly distributed throughout the paint. In the absence of a shaker, pour half the paint into a mixing bucket so you can mix the remaining half vigorously without sloshing paint onto the ground. Keep dredging up the copper off the bottom of the can until the bottom feels clean to the touch of your paddle. Slowly stir in what you poured off until the paint is uniform in color and consistency. If the paint has been on the shelf awhile, getting it mixed thoroughly can take 10 or 15 minutes, but don't skimp; if the copper isn't evenly distributed, some areas of your hull won't be protected."
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Sailldog

Saildog, Have you ever heard of someone pulling their boat,finding blisters, they have them repaired and don't dry out the bottom, then they have multiple layers of barrier coat applied? What happens? 6 months later they pull their boat and it's full of blisters again right?
Where did the fluid come from? Doesn't make sense? That's becasue blisters are not full of water. Water is only part of the chemical make up of the fluid.
Water doesn't just migrate in there and decide to collecet in one spot. IF that was the case then putting a barrier coat on would not allow any more water in and the blisters would stop 'growing'. I believe osmosis or capillary action causes the watere to initially intrude but
osmosis does not describe this phenomenon completely.

Someone somewhere in the world has to have found the chemical make up of blister fluid??
If we knew what it is made of we would likely know what causes them.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
After wire wheeling away large sections of the chopped mat around the bllisters I found on my boat, I used monomer styrene and more chopped mat to fill in the sections.
Saildog was talking about vinyl esters and poly esters as the plastic part of fiberglass.
What is styrene monomer? IS it one of these or something else all together?
This is the thing that said it was waterproof on the can. It also has a picture of a boat, so you know it's good!
 
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