Active cooling Cryo paint on decks?

JBP-PA

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Apr 29, 2022
788
Jeanneau Tonic 23 Erie, PA
Has anyone tried active cooling cryo paint on their decks? Seems ideal for boats. I've ordered their 4 oz sample and will try it somewhere. A gallon is $250!

 

dLj

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Mar 23, 2017
5,072
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Sure looks like snake oil. Nothing in their technical justification looks like it supports their claims... But what do I know???

dj
 
Jan 4, 2006
7,631
Hunter 310 West Vancouver, B.C.
:waycool:
Sure looks like snake oil.
Dunno about that. They could be charged with false advertising for giving snake oil a bad name it's so hokey.

I'm still willing to put the search for perpetual motion as one notch closer to reality than this stuff. I'd even look at UFO's before trying this stuff. Teleportation, time travel, flat earth too for that matter.
 

dLj

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Mar 23, 2017
5,072
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
Sounded like free energy / perpetual motion to me too, but maybe it's real? This from Purdue seems to suggest it's possible - The whitest paint is here – and it’s the coolest. Literally.
I would get behind that it doesn't transmit or absorb heat as other paints will, but there is no mechanism to create cooling that I can see. Hence the "15 degrees less" claim seems to defy to laws of physics - at least via the mechanisms defined in the first post. The Purdue post does not make that claim, rather it claims much great reflectivity and less absorption. That could very well be true. That could allow much less cooling needs for a building - but creating a surface that is 15 degrees less? I'm not seeing it.

dj
 
May 17, 2004
6,145
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Hence the "15 degrees less" claim seems to defy to laws of physics - at least via the mechanisms defined in the first post. The Purdue post does not make that claim, rather it claims much great reflectivity and less absorption.
The Purdue article does say “the researchers demonstrated outdoors that the paint can keep surfaces 19 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than their ambient surroundings at night. It can also cool surfaces 8 degrees Fahrenheit below their surroundings under strong sunlight during noon hours.” And the research abstract they link to says “During field tests, the BaSO4 film stays more than 4.5 °C below ambient temperature or achieves an average cooling power of 117 W/m2.”

It makes no sense to me either, even after reading explanations of how it’s supposed to work, but I googled the phenomenon some more and couldn’t find anything that says it’s fake.
 

dLj

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Mar 23, 2017
5,072
Belliure 41 Back in the Chesapeake
The Purdue article does say “the researchers demonstrated outdoors that the paint can keep surfaces 19 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than their ambient surroundings at night. It can also cool surfaces 8 degrees Fahrenheit below their surroundings under strong sunlight during noon hours.” And the research abstract they link to says “During field tests, the BaSO4 film stays more than 4.5 °C below ambient temperature or achieves an average cooling power of 117 W/m2.”

It makes no sense to me either, even after reading explanations of how it’s supposed to work, but I googled the phenomenon some more and couldn’t find anything that says it’s fake.
I guess I didn't read far enough.

These two lines can be interpreted differently: “the researchers demonstrated outdoors that the paint can keep surfaces 19 degrees Fahrenheit cooler than their ambient surroundings at night. It can also cool surfaces 8 degrees Fahrenheit below their surroundings under strong sunlight during noon hours.” If you read those clearly, they are not necessarily claiming a cooling effect.

Now, that said - this statement certainly does “During field tests, the BaSO4 film stays more than 4.5 °C below ambient temperature or achieves an average cooling power of 117 W/m2.”

@Rick Webb -what the heck is this? "Sounds like Chroma Kinetic Energy Augmentation" - I'll have to look - never heard of it...

dj

p.s. just did a quick search - it must be late - I don't get it... I'm going to bed and maybe in the morning look at this again... LOL
 

pgandw

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Oct 14, 2023
227
Stuart (ODay) Mariner 19 Yeopim Creek
The Purdue article does an excellent job of conflating 2 distinct phenomena - reflectivity and black body radiation. I expected nothing less from mechanical engineers. :)

The reflectivity using barium sulfate is about a 10-15% improvement in reflectivity - if you can make the paint with normal other paint qualities. On a boat deck, IF the coating can stand up to the environment, the reflectivity will promote sunburn even more and be harsher on your eyes. Just sayin'.

The majority of heat radiated by the barium sulfate is in an atmospheric "window". These are wavelengths where the atmospheric absorption of electromagnetic waves is low in comparison to other wavelengths. Theoretically, heat radiated at these wavelengths goes mostly out into space. However, if you stand in front of the wall or deck that is emitting, you will feel the radiated heat - just like standing in front of a brick wall after sunset. Your body does not have a window at the same wavelengths, naked or clothed. Nor do other buildings and structures. So the radiated heat that is not oriented at the clear sky (clouds reduce the window significantly) does not escape into space. But that's where the claim for "cooling" comes from.

Science lecture over. An improvement in some conditions? Yes. World changer? No.

Fred W
MSEE (Purdue U no less)
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,960
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Tricky wording. Right now it is 15 degrees warmer outside than inside my house, No AC yet. Thermal mass. Insulation. No magic way around the rule of thermodynamics. It's about time to turn the AC on, though.

The claim that you can radiate heat from cooler to warmer ... that's perpetual motion machine stuff. LOL. What's sad is when anyone believes any of it. These magic paints come out every few years. PT Barnum. Politics. People want to believe.

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This is a real product category, just not these guys or their claims.
Cool Paints
 
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JBP-PA

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Apr 29, 2022
788
Jeanneau Tonic 23 Erie, PA
Yea, it's black body radiation combined with a highly reflective paint. I've seen it a couple places, and there are a couple YouTube experimenters who claim they made some and it works. Up until now I've only seen it offered for large scale commercial projects, but I'm willing to risk $30 to test it.
My current plan is to paint half of some white canvas, lay it on the deck when it's clear and hot, and see what happens. It's not really a fair test, since the unpainted portion will not be as reflective, but it will be fun to see what happens. I might rig the same canvas as a boom tent.

Not sure what kind of canvas to use.
 
Jan 19, 2010
12,925
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Tricky wording. Right now it is 15 degrees warmer outside than inside my house, No AC yet. Thermal mass. Insulation. No magic way around the rule of thermodynamics. It's about time to turn the AC on, though.

The claim that you can radiate heat from cooler to warmer ... that's perpetual motion machine stuff. LOL. What's sad is when anyone believes any of it. These magic paints come out every few years. PT Barnum. Politics. People want to believe.

----

This is a real product category, just not these guys or their claims.
Cool Paints
Strictly speaking, the paint doesn’t have to violate thermodynamics to work...but it would have to overcome extremely unfavorable statistics.

In principle, any pigment capable of two-photon absorption could luminesce at a higher frequency. We’ve observed this using high-powered lasers as the light source. In fact, it was purely theoretical until high-flux lasers became available. Under ambient photon flux, however, excited-state lifetimes are too short and photon density too low for a realistic statistical hope for a second photon to arrive while the molecule is still excited.

The statistics are somewhat more favorable for phosphorescence. I’ve spent some time wondering whether it might be possible to design a phosphorescent molecule with a sufficiently long-lived excited state to enable two-photon absorption of ambient IR radiation. In principle, this could allow excitation from the triplet state to an even higher electronic state, which could then relax by emitting a higher-energy photon...effectively converting absorbed IR into visible or UV light. At the time I was wondering if a pigment could be engineered to absorb IR and act as a kind of “night-light” paint (e.g., for a bathroom). I was not thinking about the pigment as a cooling agent. I was only thinking about IR radiation because (presumably) if you need a nightlight, the lights would be off in the bathroom and IR radiation is all you could count on. I even sketched out the a possible Jablonski diagram.

If one could create a long-lived triplet state capable of absorbing a second IR photon, then such a mechanism could, in principle, achieve what this “paint” claims to do.

Something similar (but in reverse) has already been developed. Early in my career, I was an intern in a lab developing DayGlo pigments (the super bright yellow and orange you see on highway worker vests and even in bingo markers).

The dayglo pigments work by pairing a fluorescent dye with a conventional pigment of similar color. The fluorescent component absorbs UV light and re-emits it as visible light near the frequency of the conventional pigment, while the regular pigment reflects that light as usual. The result is that more light of a particular color is leaving the surface of the paint than what struck the paint. This is why those pigments seem so bright.
 
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