Upgrading Inverter/charger

[dlochner]

I don’t think this is correct. There is nothing I can find in E-11 or E-13 with this requirement. E-13 does require the chargers to be programmed to meet the battery manufacturers charge profile, but not necessarily communicate with the BMS. Also the BMS is required to be able to disconnect without reliance on the programmed functions of the chargers. While it’s certainly nice to have a BMS that will shutdown a compatible regulator before disconnecting the battery, it‘s not a requirement.

First, ABYC Standards are not mandatory. E13.7.4 (see below) says the BMS should notify the operator if it is going to shut down. The intention for that standard is to protect the Alternator from a voltage spike due to a BMS shutdown. The problem with the standard as written is the operator (a human) probably can't respond quickly enough to meet the intent of the standard. In practice this is met by having the BMS communicate to the Regulator to cut the field current, shutting down the alternator.

My earlier statement was a bit broad, however the essence was the BMS should talk to the Regulator to be ABYC Compliant. And just like our NMEA 2000 networks not every device uses or can use all the data on the network. I would expect the Victron network will be similar. I'll know more in another year as I'm working on and learning about a 19Kwh LFP system on a boat.

13.7.4 An output disconnect device shall be capable of disconnecting the output immediately when operating under
the battery's or the battery system's maximum specified rate of discharge.
NOTES:
1. An alternative power source is recommended for critical systems (e.g., engine starting, propulsior
navigation lights, etc.) that may be affected if a BMS shuts down the battery. The alternative power sourc
c a n b e a n o t h e r lithium ion b a t t e r y
2. If a shutdown condition is approaching, a battery system should notify the operator with a visual and/or
audible alarm before disconnecting the battery from the DC system.
3. BMS(s) may suddenly and unexpectedly disconnect a battery from loads and charging sources.

 

[Johann]

First, ABYC Standards are not mandatory. E13.7.4 (see below) says the BMS should notify the operator if it is going to shut down. The intention for that standard is to protect the Alternator from a voltage spike due to a BMS shutdown. The problem with the standard as written is the operator (a human) probably can't respond quickly enough to meet the intent of the standard. In practice this is met by having the BMS communicate to the Regulator to cut the field current, shutting down the alternator.

My earlier statement was a bit broad, however the essence was the BMS should talk to the Regulator to be ABYC Compliant. And just like our NMEA 2000 networks not every device uses or can use all the data on the network. I would expect the Victron network will be similar. I'll know more in another year as I'm working on and learning about a 19Kwh LFP system on a boat.

Sure, compliance with ABYC standards is not required by law. But if you want a compliant installation you should follow their "shall" and "must" instructions, and consider the recommendations and "should" statements.

But with regard to E13.7.4, that applies to battery output, not charger output. The intent is that the operator has notice to prepare an alternate source of power to critical systems. It is not a suggestion that the BMS should have the ability to shutdown an input device like the alternator regulator.

 

[HoosierSailor]

Thanks everyone! I appreciate the helpful tips and advice. Let me provide a little more background. My wife and i are full time liveaboards and we are currently in the Exumas. The Freedom 20 inverter charger we have is original to the boat and slowly on the way out. It is starting cut out at high rates of charge when I have the generator running unless I open the rear door on the engine compartment to provide additional cooling. I also hope to upgrade to LifePo lithium later this year from the 2 AGMs that we have. So an upgrade is in order. I also plan to upgrade the solar from 400 watts so that I hopefully won't have to run the generator or the engine as much. I like the Victron line and have a Victron battery monitor and solar control already so I believe it makes sense. I also have a watermaker that I would like to be able to run off the inverter/lithium setup without have to start the generator. Currently the 2000 watt inverter doesn't quite cut it.

I was just hoping maybe someone with a similiar boat had already installed one and came up with a good idea of where to mount it.

Thanks

 

[colemj]

Well I wouldn't say Victron uses sanskrit, but they do use actual electrical and engineering terms.

That part is the same for every manufacture. With Victron, you need to learn the language of Ve.net, Ve.bus, Ve.can, VCC, DVCC, etc. Made even more obfuscated in that they don't have any manuals that describe things well. Victron really relies on professional installers and pushing their customers to such.

Victron is the only manufacturer whose inverter/chargers cannot be programmed or setup without plugging into a computer through a specialized cable and running complicated software. They used to offer an external control panel that allowed all of this (I have one and it's brilliant and does everything the computer can), but they got rid of it because it gave too much control to the user.

The people that like Victron are pretty dedicated to it.

As I mentioned, I do like our Victron gear, and have bought it several times. Most of the people who are "dedicated" to Victron are the ones that have entire centralized Victron ecosystems, and many of them were not installed by the user, and problems are incomprehensible to them. The Victron forums bear this out. Otherwise, there are equal standalone inverter/charger options, and better solar controller options than Victron. Definitely better batteries and BMS's.

Mark

 

[colemj]

It is not a suggestion that the BMS should have the ability to shutdown an input device like the alternator regulator.

That's correct. It is not a recommendation at all with ABYC that the devices communicate. The "notification" needs to be visual or audio, so that part is necessary regardless of communication. It also could simply open a relay that interrupts power to the regulator/controller, thus automatically shutting things down without any communication at all.

Mark