Wiring Diagram Question.

[BAD ORCA]

One of my AC chargers recently began having problems, so instead of buying another one, I was considering rewiring my electrical system a bit to do a couple of things. First would be to rewire it so that i could make use of the single remaining charger for everything. The second thing is to rewire my electrical system so that i could plug into shore power anywhere in the world without having to make any special modifications.

I know the way to do this (at least one way) is to wire the shore power directly to a battery charger that charges the house bank that has an inverter connected, and then run all the AC loads through the inverter. Thats simple enough to do and to wire up, however I would also like to be able to send the shore power directly to the AC distribution panel when i'm in the U.S. home port and to not use the inverter for my AC loads bypassing it completely. To do this I envision using two Blue Seas 9009 rotary switches.

In the attached wiring diagram crude drawing, on the left is the shore power inlet, from there (omitting circuit breaker, galvanic isolator etc etc...for simplicity) it goes to the first rotary switch as the only input. From this rotary switch i can choose to send it to either one of two outputs, the battery charger/house bank/inverter branch or to a second rotary switch. The second rotary switch accepts two input sources but only allows one of the two sources to go to the AC distribution panel. The second source is 100% isolated. If i chose to send the shore power directly to the AC panel I would switch the first rotary switch so that it sends AC directly to the second rotary switch, from the second one I would simply choose that source as my AC.

Now, if i was sailing somewhere where the shore power was different from the US, I would do the opposite, I would switch the first rotary switch to choose to send the AC power to the battery charger/house battery/inverter branch. From here I would turn on the inverter for my AC loads and select the inverter as my power source on the second rotary switch sending the inverter AC to the AC distribution bus.

I can not find a fault with my wiring diagram so far, but its getting late and am tired so might be missing something obvious. Because the second rotary switch only allows a single source to get to the AC panel, i'm not seeing any back feed issues with the inverter. I could have the inverter on and the shore power going to the same rotary switch (#2), but both would be completely isolated at the switch. The charger would also be on an isolated circuit breaker so it could be switched on/off manually.

I would have to buy a DC-DC charger, but they are much cheaper than a decent AC charger. Also with this arrangement, my bilge pumps could be connected to the house bank. When out sailing they would have plenty of power to draw on from the lithium batteries. When plugged in at the dock they would have unlimited power to draw on and also work if there was a shore power outage. It seems to simple though so i feel like im missing something obvious.

 

[Davidasailor26]

It does seem like that should work from m the standpoint of controlling where the power goes. The switch on the right should ensure that you never have two AC sources feeding the circuit or that the inverter back feeds the shore power connector. You should make sure that your setup does not connect ground to neutral when you’re on shore power but does when inverting. I think the right switch does that also but it’s worth double checking.

Obviously you’ll need a charger capable of working on both American and European voltages and frequencies. You’ll also need an adapter or second cord to power your shore power connector from both US and European plugs. The only other risk I see is that if you accidentally leave the switches in US mode when traveling to a higher voltage marina you could pass the 230 volts through to your US appliances and damage them. But making those transitions should be infrequent enough that you make the switches as part of that process.

 

[dlochner]

Your plans raise a lot of questions.

What inverter is currently installed?
What battery charger is currently installed?
How do plan to handle the AC ground problem?
What kind of batteries do you have?

Victron makes equipment that makes dual voltage systems pretty easy and safe. MacGyvering a system is fraught with problems. A well designed system may be more expensive at the start, but more economical in the long run.

The most dangerous problem is the AC ground. The AC ground and neutral need to be tied together at the source of power, the inverter when inverting, the shoreside panel when on shore power. Some inverters do this automatically, some manually. The automatic models are preferred as they remove human error and omission from switching to shore to inverter power and vice-versa.

Take a look at the Victron Multiplus line of inverter chargers. They are pretty magic. When plugged into shore power they will charge the battery and will provide AC. When off shore power they will automatically invert and provide AC while taking care of the AC ground issue. I believe they will also accept either 120 or 240 volts, check the specs.

Inverter/chargers - Victron Energy

The inverter / battery chargers from Victron Energy are advanced and multifunctional. Now safely charge batteries.

www.victronenergy.com

 

[Davidasailor26]

Take a look at the Victron Multiplus line of inverter chargers. They are pretty magic. When plugged into shore power they will charge the battery and will provide AC. When off shore power they will automatically invert and provide AC while taking care of the AC ground issue. I believe they will also accept either 120 or 240 volts, check the specs.

That was my first thought for a more elegant solution too, but as far as I could find they only have models that are either 120 or 230 volt, not both. They make isolation chargers that can go either way, but that would be a whole separate piece of equipment in addition to the existing charger and inverter. It also wouldn’t solve the frequency problems.

 

[dLj]

Kind of an aside, I originally designed my boat to take both voltages as you are proposing but never installed the second european input part.

Now, after sailing to Europe and spending a fair bit of time there, I realize that having the boat set up to be relatively independent is a better option. I'll never install this second input.

If you are going to sail to foreign lands where this would be used, you are going to spend a lot of time where there is no shore power. You'll want to setup your boat for those passages. Hence, once you arrive, your boat will be sufficiently self-sufficient that you won't need it.

dj

 

[BAD ORCA]

It does seem like that should work from m the standpoint of controlling where the power goes. The switch on the right should ensure that you never have two AC sources feeding the circuit or that the inverter back feeds the shore power connector. You should make sure that your setup does not connect ground to neutral when you’re on shore power but does when inverting. I think the right switch does that also but it’s worth double checking.

Obviously you’ll need a charger capable of working on both American and European voltages and frequencies. You’ll also need an adapter or second cord to power your shore power connector from both US and European plugs. The only other risk I see is that if you accidentally leave the switches in US mode when traveling to a higher voltage marina you could pass the 230 volts through to your US appliances and damage them. But making those transitions should be infrequent enough that you make the switches as part of that process.

Thanks for feedback. Yes that a good point for being on 230 and sending it directly through. I could put a lockout on the switch in that scenario so that me or guests could not accidentally do this.

I currently have part of the setup already installed actually. Currently my boat has switch #2 already connected to shore and my Victron Multiplus. The ground to neutral connection is already taken care of with the Multiplus and is never connected when AC is going directly to the AC panel. I would have to make some changes in routing of AC but the AC wiring at the mains would stay the same so this bond would never happen. Thanks for reminder, easy to forget some of these details.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Your plans raise a lot of questions.

What inverter is currently installed?
What battery charger is currently installed?
How do plan to handle the AC ground problem?
What kind of batteries do you have?

Victron makes equipment that makes dual voltage systems pretty easy and safe. MacGyvering a system is fraught with problems. A well designed system may be more expensive at the start, but more economical in the long run.

The most dangerous problem is the AC ground. The AC ground and neutral need to be tied together at the source of power, the inverter when inverting, the shoreside panel when on shore power. Some inverters do this automatically, some manually. The automatic models are preferred as they remove human error and omission from switching to shore to inverter power and vice-versa.

Take a look at the Victron Multiplus line of inverter chargers. They are pretty magic. When plugged into shore power they will charge the battery and will provide AC. When off shore power they will automatically invert and provide AC while taking care of the AC ground issue. I believe they will also accept either 120 or 240 volts, check the specs.

Inverter/chargers - Victron Energy

The inverter / battery chargers from Victron Energy are advanced and multifunctional. Now safely charge batteries.

www.victronenergy.com

Thankyou for your concerns and feedback.

Currently I have a Victron Multiplus 3000 but am not using the charger option. I have it setup as an inverter only.

I have a Victron Phoenix Smart IP43 charger currently installed. It accepts a wide voltage range. My Sterling Pro Ultra stopped working correctly so will become a backup charger that can be switched on from the main AC panel when plugged directly into shore power.

The AC ground aboard is sent to the mains DC negative bus. Neutral and ground are isolated at the panel aboard the boat and the Multiplus does this automatically and has the addition of a case ground. Shore power here in the US ties neutral and earth although i'm not sure about overseas countries. I have no experience in this regard and would love feedback, particularly for South America as far south as Chile and Patagonia as well as north in Canada if anyone knows. I plan to produce as much, preferably all of my own power but i'm sure I would be plugged in from time to time in other countries.

I currently have an Epoch 300ah lithium. It can handle 300amp continuous discharge. I plan on adding one more to the house bank eventually.

The system is mostly already in place and working flawlessly. Originally i had a second battery charger and directed the AC a little differently than what i'm planning. It was/is still setup in a way that does not allow me to plug in anywhere and to make use of the variable voltage range of the charger. I had planned to re-arrange the system before setting off cruising, but this seems like a good opportunity to get it done now.

Thanks

 

[colemj]

Your multiplus 3000 has an internal transfer switch that can be activated/deactivated. Just wire the shore power to the inverter, get rid of switch #2, and when in the US, let the internal transfer switch pass the power, and when outside the US, turn the transfer switch off. I don't think you even need that if switch #1 sends the shore power to either the charger or the inverter, but not both. Then just use that as a switch with positions labeled "US" and "Not US".

Mark

 

[dlochner]

From reading Musings with Maine Sail I learned a common problem with inverter and generator installations was neutral-ground bonding. So I asked.

Power in Canada is the same as ours 120v 60Hz. Wikipedia has map showing the various power supplies in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country

 

[BAD ORCA]

Kind of an aside, I originally designed my boat to take both voltages as you are proposing but never installed the second european input part.

Now, after sailing to Europe and spending a fair bit of time there, I realize that having the boat set up to be relatively independent is a better option. I'll never install this second input.

If you are going to sail to foreign lands where this would be used, you are going to spend a lot of time where there is no shore power. You'll want to setup your boat for those passages. Hence, once you arrive, your boat will be sufficiently self-sufficient that you won't need it.

dj

Interesting, thank you. Completely agree 100% This is the ultimate plan. I would hope I can avoid docks most of the time but would be nice to tie up once in a while i'm guessing. I figure I can get 400 watts of solar aboard which wont nearly be enough, so plan on using wind and hydro as well but mostly high output alternator/s. My boat originally had two 50 gallon water tanks and 45 gallon diesel tank. I want to sail in cold climates so I plan to reverse this setup and replace the water tanks for fuel tanks, so 100 plus gallons of diesel. I will still be able to get 50 gallons of water tankage with some careful conversions of space. Also hope to add a watermaker at some point but thats near the end of the list of priorities right now. It be nice to get the electrical backbone finalized so i can start focusing on the other aspects of energy generation and start tying them into the system.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Your multiplus 3000 has an internal transfer switch that can be activated/deactivated. Just wire the shore power to the inverter, get rid of switch #2, and when in the US, let the internal transfer switch pass the power, and when outside the US, turn the transfer switch off. I don't think you even need that if switch #1 sends the shore power to either the charger or the inverter, but not both. Then just use that as a switch with positions labeled "US" and "Not US".

Mark

Interesting, I will have to read up on this to understand it better.

 

[BAD ORCA]

From reading Musings with Maine Sail I learned a common problem with inverter and generator installations was neutral-ground bonding. So I asked.

Power in Canada is the same as ours 120v 60Hz. Wikipedia has map showing the various power supplies in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity_by_country

agreed. from my understanding its essential for GFCI and ELCI to work correctly. I believe the inverter also needs a case ground for GFCI to work correctly when inverting and for directing fault current overboard, but its been a while since i did this research and setup my system.

Map is very helpful, thanks. Looks like Chile and Patagonia are similar to Europen voltages.

 

[dLj]

Interesting, thank you. Completely agree 100% This is the ultimate plan. I would hope I can avoid docks most of the time but would be nice to tie up once in a while i'm guessing. I figure I can get 400 watts of solar aboard which wont nearly be enough, so plan on using wind and hydro as well but mostly high output alternator/s. My boat originally had two 50 gallon water tanks and 45 gallon diesel tank. I want to sail in cold climates so I plan to reverse this setup and replace the water tanks for fuel tanks, so 100 plus gallons of diesel. I will still be able to get 50 gallons of water tankage with some careful conversions of space. Also hope to add a watermaker at some point but thats near the end of the list of priorities right now. It be nice to get the electrical backbone finalized so i can start focusing on the other aspects of energy generation and start tying them into the system.

How about a more holistic conversation about what you have for sailing plans and onboard systems?

I would never put another wind generator on. They are a relic of the past. I would definitely put in a Watts and Sea water turbine.

Why do you say 400 watt solar panel is no where near enough? I have a 385 watt panel and find it excellent. It produces power very well including up through Newfoundland. What systems are you using that makes you feel you need a lot more power?

You are planning to head to Southern Chile? More details...

dj

 

[colemj]

I believe the inverter also needs a case ground for GFCI to work correctly when inverting and for directing fault current overboard, but its been a while since i did this research and setup my system.

The case ground is for a DC fault, not AC. It has nothing to do with GFCI either. A DC fault (internal short to case) is a rare unicorn indeed - almost impossible with most inverters, but regulations say it must be connected, and must be the same size, or one size smaller, than the DC power wires connecting the inverter.

Connecting the case ground straight to the DC neg terminal on the inverter satisfies the electrical intent (and could have been done internally by the manufacturer), but ABYC wants a complete separate wire in case the regular wire is not available when the inverter shorts DC to the case (a combined situation I'd wager a donut has never happened in history), so you need to run that wire redundantly back to the battery negative bus/terminal.

I bet the majority of inverter installations have completely ignored the case ground, or just connected a 10awg green wire between it and a random ground point. I'll also bet in my lifetime I will not see an inverter short DC to case.

Mark

 

[colemj]

Our boat is set up similar to what you want to do. Here is how it works for us:

A single shore power inlet is directly connected to both an AC breaker panel and the inverter. The inverter powers a second AC breaker panel.

The first AC panel only has a charger connected to it. It used to have all the high loads like water heater, A/C's, watermaker, dive compressor, but we power all of these off the inverter now so moved their breakers to the other panel. The charger input takes 110-240V and 50-60Hz. A universal charger.

The second AC panel contains everything else powered by AC on board, and is controlled by the inverter's automatic internal transfer switch. When this switch is activated, the inverter is bypassed and the shore power is passed to the second AC panel. When it is deactivated (or no shore power available), the inverter powers the second AC panel.

While we have not had to do this yet, if we went somewhere where only 220V 50Hz power was available, we would plug in like normal and turn off the inverter's automatic internal transfer switch. Then power would only be fed to the universal charger, and the inverter would run all of the AC stuff on the boat.

It goes without saying that you will need a shore power cordset that will connect to other power sources. Either a universal 50A plug or a converter pigtail for your plug.

Mark

 

[BAD ORCA]

How about a more holistic conversation about what you have for sailing plans and onboard systems?

I would never put another wind generator on. They are a relic of the past. I would definitely put in a Watts and Sea water turbine.

Why do you say 400 watt solar panel is no where near enough? I have a 385 watt panel and find it excellent. It produces power very well including up through Newfoundland. What systems are you using that makes you feel you need a lot more power?

You are planning to head to Southern Chile? More details...

dj

Thanks dj. Well i'd like to sail south from southern California in a few years when im done refitting and restoring my boat. I'm about 60% done at this point. Im really interested in Chile and Argentina, particularly the southern coast of Chile through the Strait of Magellan and that coastal area. Also, very interested in the Southern Alaska coast and parts of B.C.

Onboard systems im trying to design and refit with cold weather sailing in mind, mostly remote sailing so heavily self sufficient with redundancy where i can build it in. Unfortunately i have no real world experience except for local sailing along the southern california coast, so i'm mostly relying on a handful of youtube channels and forums to help me try and figure out what is working and what is not in cold weather areas. Starting mid next year i will be able to start sailing out to the outer channel islands here in southern california so will be able to start putting to the test what is working and what is not, but our weather is fairly mild here by comparison.

As for solar and energy generation, i'd like to have an all electric galley which is probably a pipe dream but am thinking about possibly adding a diesel powered stove/oven. I was not a fan of wind either up until recently i watched a video from 'refit and sail' and he goes into some detail on his Silent Wind wind generator that is giving me second thoughts. Marine - Silentwind I truly like the Watt and Sea generators and will either buy one or try and DIY my own. The Watt and Sea generators seem to be prone to a high maintenance/failure rate though which is a little worrying considering the price for one of them. As for solar, i really have no idea but figured it would be less useful than i might expect and need to have a primary source of energy generation that was failsafe ie...alternator/s.

I'm trying to design a system, or am trying to keep in the front of my mind while doing the refit, of creating a complete system that has as low an energy consumption per day as i can possibly manage. Im trying to divide things into a group of 'core' functions, heating, navigation, bilge pumps, autopilot/windvane, etc...that use as little energy as possible and have a second group of devices that are more of a luxury item when energy production allows. The core functions i would hope in extreme circumstances would use less than 80Ah of battery capacity per day give-or-take. with a 600+ ah battery bank that would give me a week or so of power, but i really have no idea how realistic this number is yet. It seems the best path forward to generate energy is with diesel and an alternator, so the more diesel i can carry the better. I will also have diesel heating (reflex stove and diesel forced air system). I dont even know if 100 gallons of tankage is enough but im not sure i can fit more aboard my 36ft boat.

 

[BAD ORCA]

The case ground is for a DC fault, not AC. It has nothing to do with GFCI either. A DC fault (internal short to case) is a rare unicorn indeed - almost impossible with most inverters, but regulations say it must be connected, and must be the same size, or one size smaller, than the DC power wires connecting the inverter.

Connecting the case ground straight to the DC neg terminal on the inverter satisfies the electrical intent (and could have been done internally by the manufacturer), but ABYC wants a complete separate wire in case the regular wire is not available when the inverter shorts DC to the case (a combined situation I'd wager a donut has never happened in history), so you need to run that wire redundantly back to the battery negative bus/terminal.

I bet the majority of inverter installations have completely ignored the case ground, or just connected a 10awg green wire between it and a random ground point. I'll also bet in my lifetime I will not see an inverter short DC to case.

Mark

Yeah i agree its a bit of a difficult decision to make. I have seen pretty much zero inverters with it installed, but my mind is warped to an extreme degree of "what if" so im relegated into the painful decision of installing the 4/0 case ground. Its already installed as that part of the system was finished last year. If only my "paranoid mind" could come up with creative/proven ways to pay some of the bills for its paranoid nature.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Our boat is set up similar to what you want to do. Here is how it works for us:

A single shore power inlet is directly connected to both an AC breaker panel and the inverter. The inverter powers a second AC breaker panel.

The first AC panel only has a charger connected to it. It used to have all the high loads like water heater, A/C's, watermaker, dive compressor, but we power all of these off the inverter now so moved their breakers to the other panel. The charger input takes 110-240V and 50-60Hz. A universal charger.

The second AC panel contains everything else powered by AC on board, and is controlled by the inverter's automatic internal transfer switch. When this switch is activated, the inverter is bypassed and the shore power is passed to the second AC panel. When it is deactivated (or no shore power available), the inverter powers the second AC panel.

While we have not had to do this yet, if we went somewhere where only 220V 50Hz power was available, we would plug in like normal and turn off the inverter's automatic internal transfer switch. Then power would only be fed to the universal charger, and the inverter would run all of the AC stuff on the boat.

It goes without saying that you will need a shore power cordset that will connect to other power sources. Either a universal 50A plug or a converter pigtail for your plug.

Mark

Thanks for elaborating, much appreciated. HA! yeah that would be tragically funny if i show up all wired up and ready to go to some foreign dock, only to have forgotten the shore power cordset to allow me to connect. I'm good at forgetting stuff like that.

 

[dlochner]

Don't underrate solar. Once installed it is cheap and efficient. And don't cheap out on solar. Any solar panel can get to or get close to its rated output in perfect conditions. It is in low light conditions where high efficiency panels make a difference, early morning, late evening and poor weather, when lesser panels are still snoozing, high efficiency panels are up and working. This does come at a cost, better cells, better engineering cost more.

Wind generators generally need about 12-15 knots to reach their rated output and by 20 knots they are shutting. That's a narrow window. Better to put the money into efficient solar panels.

Your 80 ah target is not unreasonable until you use electricity to cook. That is in the range of what we use when living aboard. We cook with propane and tend towards simple meals cooked on the stove top. When sailing the biggest draw is the AP. Wind vane self-steering does not consume any electricity. Since you plan to sail to cold water areas, look to a water cooled refrigeration system. There is considerable efficiency to be gained from water cooling. Seafrost makes refrigerators that are dual sea or air cooled. Change back and forth with a simple switch.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Don't underrate solar. Once installed it is cheap and efficient. And don't cheap out on solar. Any solar panel can get to or get close to its rated output in perfect conditions. It is in low light conditions where high efficiency panels make a difference, early morning, late evening and poor weather, when lesser panels are still snoozing, high efficiency panels are up and working. This does come at a cost, better cells, better engineering cost more.

Wind generators generally need about 12-15 knots to reach their rated output and by 20 knots they are shutting. That's a narrow window. Better to put the money into efficient solar panels.

Your 80 ah target is not unreasonable until you use electricity to cook. That is in the range of what we use when living aboard. We cook with propane and tend towards simple meals cooked on the stove top. When sailing the biggest draw is the AP. Wind vane self-steering does not consume any electricity. Since you plan to sail to cold water areas, look to a water cooled refrigeration system. There is considerable efficiency to be gained from water cooling. Seafrost makes refrigerators that are dual sea or air cooled. Change back and forth with a simple switch.

Thanks Dave. I have 270 watts of Sunpower semi flexible solar panels so far which i have not installed yet. Im going to add them to a hard dodger so they will se some shading from the boom. I will use an MPPT controller for each individual panel to try and mitigate this, at least this is the plan so far. I figure if i add an arch, i might be able to get another 200-250 watts so maybe 500'ish total. I'm hoping solar will make a large contribution though. It certainly will in climates like southern california or the Med. In these areas, i could probably get all my energy from them. Unfortunately i will max out around 400-500 watts so thats why i thought of wind and hydro. Its not cheap though and im not rich so....but would be nice not to have to use the engine for recharging if i dont have to of course.

I have a CPT wheel pilot that im getting used to but will add a more serious inboard pilot for heavy seas and of course a windvane. The CPT, if i can use it often uses very, very little power in under 20kt conditions. I have not had the chance to test it yt in heavier winds, but it has used only 2-3 amp hours or less in all day bay sailing so far. Of course windvane would be priority self steering.

Interesting on the refrigeration. I was not aware of Seafrost. There is an unused water intake thru-hull right next to where the refer will be going that was the old galley foot pump.

I'd love to find out more on diesel stoves. I dont mind propane, but if diesel stoves are any good, it would be nice to eliminate having to have another item aboard i need to manage/refill. I do have a single induction HOB that i have been using that has been very nice to use but i admit i only use it for a few minutes at a time to heat up water or cans of something to eat. I also bought a pressure cooker that uses a surprisingly small amount of power. I thought it would be more, and im going to get a Remoska soon to see how it does. I have heard they are very energy efficient little ovens.