Wiring Diagram Question.

[dLj]

Thanks dj. Well i'd like to sail south from southern California in a few years when im done refitting and restoring my boat. I'm about 60% done at this point. Im really interested in Chile and Argentina, particularly the southern coast of Chile through the Strait of Magellan and that coastal area. Also, very interested in the Southern Alaska coast and parts of B.C.

Onboard systems im trying to design and refit with cold weather sailing in mind, mostly remote sailing so heavily self sufficient with redundancy where i can build it in. Unfortunately i have no real world experience except for local sailing along the southern california coast, so i'm mostly relying on a handful of youtube channels and forums to help me try and figure out what is working and what is not in cold weather areas. Starting mid next year i will be able to start sailing out to the outer channel islands here in southern california so will be able to start putting to the test what is working and what is not, but our weather is fairly mild here by comparison.

As for solar and energy generation, i'd like to have an all electric galley which is probably a pipe dream but am thinking about possibly adding a diesel powered stove/oven. I was not a fan of wind either up until recently i watched a video from 'refit and sail' and he goes into some detail on his Silent Wind wind generator that is giving me second thoughts. Marine - Silentwind I truly like the Watt and Sea generators and will either buy one or try and DIY my own. The Watt and Sea generators seem to be prone to a high maintenance/failure rate though which is a little worrying considering the price for one of them. As for solar, i really have no idea but figured it would be less useful than i might expect and need to have a primary source of energy generation that was failsafe ie...alternator/s.

I'm trying to design a system, or am trying to keep in the front of my mind while doing the refit, of creating a complete system that has as low an energy consumption per day as i can possibly manage. Im trying to divide things into a group of 'core' functions, heating, navigation, bilge pumps, autopilot/windvane, etc...that use as little energy as possible and have a second group of devices that are more of a luxury item when energy production allows. The core functions i would hope in extreme circumstances would use less than 80Ah of battery capacity per day give-or-take. with a 600+ ah battery bank that would give me a week or so of power, but i really have no idea how realistic this number is yet. It seems the best path forward to generate energy is with diesel and an alternator, so the more diesel i can carry the better. I will also have diesel heating (reflex stove and diesel forced air system). I dont even know if 100 gallons of tankage is enough but im not sure i can fit more aboard my 36ft boat.

Those are two different regions. Definitely two opposite directions from Southern California.

I installed the Silent Air wind generator. Here's the problem: unless you are in fairly constant 25 to 30 knot winds, it is barely a trickle charger. The cost of the unit is notable higher than solar panels. The return in investment, in terms of energy out per dollar in, is very low. I don't even use mine at this point and will take it off the boat in the near future, and it's still on warranty... They don't even begin trickle charging until the wind gets to about 10 knots. A huge disappointment.

For the length of ocean passages you are talking about you really should get a wind vane. I put a hydrovane on my boat and it was fantastic! They are probably the most expensive wind vane there is, but as I was heading to Europe and with the issue of the Orcas, I wanted the auxiliary rudder option. You don't necessarily need that for where you are going. I also have plenty going on in my aft cockpit and did not want all the lines needed for a service pendulum type, although I've used them in the past and they are also excellent. I will add that the Hydrovane performed so well, I would highly recommend it. Your boat is a good size for it also.

I'm not as familiar with the Alaska route as the Southern route. For the Southern route you need really good ground tackle. And you need really long scope. You can't do it with all chain, you will need to run out sometimes 600 to 800 feet of scope due to the water depths for anchoring. You will want long shore ropes also, similar to what is needed in Norway.

Once you get down I to that region, you will want a lot of lines for tying off and lots of bumpers. It is actually probably one area where your wind generator might actually be somewhat useful. But you will have thousands of miles to travel before that, I still don't think it's worth it... But kinda up to you.

For passage making, is go with the Watts and Sea - do you really think you can build one? Again, up to you.

An electric stove/oven would definitely kick up your power needs. The modern diesel stoves are much better than the old ones. I used propane, if you don't like that, I'd probably go with diesel over electric given the size of your boat and all the various compromises. I used to have a boat with diesel stove, but it was a long time ago and they weren't what they are today...

Once down south, your 100 gallons of diesel will be pretty small. You will be cooking, heating and supplementing electric although this last will be much less than you think if you get your solar and Watts and Sea set up. The real consumption will be heating. At least you sure don't want to run out and not have heat....

Do you have a place to put a fuel bladder? I've seen people put them in the floor of their cockpit. Jerry cans everyone has seen strapped to like lifelines. There are two problems with that. One, is that you are going to be going through some knarly waves and wind to get there - they are often ripped off. Most folks I know now that head down there take their Jerry cans and make holders - strong ones - closer to the mast base. The second problem is the modern fuel cans mandatorily must have a vent. That means they don't completely seal - I have old cans that don't have that problem. Id be worried of sea water ingress....

I run 400 amp hours of LiFePo house bank - with my one 385 watt solar panel, at anchor I get between a week and a month depending upon sun before I need to run my engine. I'm running twin 120 amp alternators through a wakespeed 500 controller - I carry a ore-programed back up - I don't allow over about 75% total output from the alternators on order to not get them too hot. So I recharge running my engine at between 180 and 190 amps out os a system theoretically able to put out 240 amps. Makes for much happier alternators.

Hope this helps a bit and if you have more questions, ask.

dj

 

[dLj]

Thanks Dave. I have 270 watts of Sunpower semi flexible solar panels so far which i have not installed yet. Im going to add them to a hard dodger so they will se some shading from the boom. I will use an MPPT controller for each individual panel to try and mitigate this, at least this is the plan so far. I figure if i add an arch, i might be able to get another 200-250 watts so maybe 500'ish total. I'm hoping solar will make a large contribution though. It certainly will in climates like southern california or the Med. In these areas, i could probably get all my energy from them. Unfortunately i will max out around 400-500 watts so thats why i thought of wind and hydro. Its not cheap though and im not rich so....but would be nice not to have to use the engine for recharging if i dont have to of course.

I have a CPT wheel pilot that im getting used to but will add a more serious inboard pilot for heavy seas and of course a windvane. The CPT, if i can use it often uses very, very little power in under 20kt conditions. I have not had the chance to test it yt in heavier winds, but it has used only 2-3 amp hours or less in all day bay sailing so far. Of course windvane would be priority self steering.

Interesting on the refrigeration. I was not aware of Seafrost. There is an unused water intake thru-hull right next to where the refer will be going that was the old galley foot pump.

I'd love to find out more on diesel stoves. I dont mind propane, but if diesel stoves are any good, it would be nice to eliminate having to have another item aboard i need to manage/refill. I do have a single induction HOB that i have been using that has been very nice to use but i admit i only use it for a few minutes at a time to heat up water or cans of something to eat. I also bought a pressure cooker that uses a surprisingly small amount of power. I thought it would be more, and im going to get a Remoska soon to see how it does. I have heard they are very energy efficient little ovens.

Some quick notes. I got very good output from my solar panel on both Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. Now I didn't go further north so can't talk to output up there, but I can say the further towards the poles you go, you do have the issue of winter and much shortened hours of light. How long to you plan to spend in such areas? If through winters, I might have to retract my no to a windgenerator.....

The CPT is an excellent auto pilot. I would not waste money on another system, spend on the windvane (and Watts and Sea). Between the two you are well covered. If you do go to the Hydrovane, you can add in a very inexpensive tiller autopilot and run the self-steering of the Hydrovane as an autopilot. I did that as a back-up (never needed it).

I used a stove top pressure cooker. It's amazing how little energy they need! Keep you induction hot plate - you'll want it throughout the region of the mid-latitudes....

I'ma not familiar with the Remoska...

I ran minimal refrigeration. I have an old frig/freezer that runs well. It was all I needed. But I'm also well versed on living without refrigeration. I do like having some ice cream from time to time.... LOL

Modern diesel cook stoves are head and shoulders above the old ones I used in the past. It's just not as popular today.

Looking forward to hearing more!

dj

 

[colemj]

If refrigeration is considered "core" usage, then even an "efficient" one will not fit within an 80Ah/day budget unless it is either very small, or extremely well-insulated. I'd budget 50Ah/day for that alone, assuming it is modest size and has good insulation.

Mark

 

[BAD ORCA]

Those are two different regions. Definitely two opposite directions from Southern California.

I installed the Silent Air wind generator. Here's the problem: unless you are in fairly constant 25 to 30 knot winds, it is barely a trickle charger. The cost of the unit is notable higher than solar panels. The return in investment, in terms of energy out per dollar in, is very low. I don't even use mine at this point and will take it off the boat in the near future, and it's still on warranty... They don't even begin trickle charging until the wind gets to about 10 knots. A huge disappointment.

For the length of ocean passages you are talking about you really should get a wind vane. I put a hydrovane on my boat and it was fantastic! They are probably the most expensive wind vane there is, but as I was heading to Europe and with the issue of the Orcas, I wanted the auxiliary rudder option. You don't necessarily need that for where you are going. I also have plenty going on in my aft cockpit and did not want all the lines needed for a service pendulum type, although I've used them in the past and they are also excellent. I will add that the Hydrovane performed so well, I would highly recommend it. Your boat is a good size for it also.

I'm not as familiar with the Alaska route as the Southern route. For the Southern route you need really good ground tackle. And you need really long scope. You can't do it with all chain, you will need to run out sometimes 600 to 800 feet of scope due to the water depths for anchoring. You will want long shore ropes also, similar to what is needed in Norway.

Once you get down I to that region, you will want a lot of lines for tying off and lots of bumpers. It is actually probably one area where your wind generator might actually be somewhat useful. But you will have thousands of miles to travel before that, I still don't think it's worth it... But kinda up to you.

For passage making, is go with the Watts and Sea - do you really think you can build one? Again, up to you.

An electric stove/oven would definitely kick up your power needs. The modern diesel stoves are much better than the old ones. I used propane, if you don't like that, I'd probably go with diesel over electric given the size of your boat and all the various compromises. I used to have a boat with diesel stove, but it was a long time ago and they weren't what they are today...

Once down south, your 100 gallons of diesel will be pretty small. You will be cooking, heating and supplementing electric although this last will be much less than you think if you get your solar and Watts and Sea set up. The real consumption will be heating. At least you sure don't want to run out and not have heat....

Do you have a place to put a fuel bladder? I've seen people put them in the floor of their cockpit. Jerry cans everyone has seen strapped to like lifelines. There are two problems with that. One, is that you are going to be going through some knarly waves and wind to get there - they are often ripped off. Most folks I know now that head down there take their Jerry cans and make holders - strong ones - closer to the mast base. The second problem is the modern fuel cans mandatorily must have a vent. That means they don't completely seal - I have old cans that don't have that problem. Id be worried of sea water ingress....

I run 400 amp hours of LiFePo house bank - with my one 385 watt solar panel, at anchor I get between a week and a month depending upon sun before I need to run my engine. I'm running twin 120 amp alternators through a wakespeed 500 controller - I carry a ore-programed back up - I don't allow over about 75% total output from the alternators on order to not get them too hot. So I recharge running my engine at between 180 and 190 amps out os a system theoretically able to put out 240 amps. Makes for much happier alternators.

Hope this helps a bit and if you have more questions, ask.

dj

Thank you! This is great info that is really helpful.

I never thought of a fuel bladder. I'm familiar with them but forgot about them to be honest. I could probably get a 75'ish gallon bladder under the quarter berth. I would love to get closer to 200 gallons on board without having to stow jerry cans. I'm a big fan of TUPAIA on youtube if you havnt seen their videos TUPAIA. They have some fantastic videos of sailing in South America, but at the end of the videos they give some detailed information and list their actual fuel usage during their specific journey. Its been very helpful and a little eye opening. They use a lot more than i had imagined would be needed. My boat will not be the greatest regarding insulation and there will be gaps or areas that wont be insulated, so i'm probably looking at higher than average fuel usage for heating, although i can manage cold fairly well, so i will need to carry more but absolutely do not want jerry cans on the decks if it can be avoided.

I really like the Cape Horn windvanes. I have seen a couple and they avoid all the ropes in the cockpit. I'm pretty sure i could probably get one installed but have to do some measuring. I agree, I think i would prioritize the self steering over an inboard autopilot and add the inboard systems last. I think the CPT can cope just fine up to the point where the windvane can be used instead. More testing to do but so far very happy with it.

Ha! I really dont know if i can DIY a hydrovane. I think i can though. I have the fabrication skills, i dont have the technical knowledge yet. Worse case, i buy a Watt and Sea and look after it closely. I would add a hydrovane before wind though. Wind would be last if and when i thought i needed it. They are not cheap units. I plan to repower with a new BETA engine and would add the high power alternators as an upgrade option. They will build the engine for you with dual high output alternators.

 

[dlochner]

The jerry cans sold in the US are a PITA because of the spouts, they weren't designed to be used on a sailboat at sea. When we were in Canada this summer, I found replacement spouts for Specter cans, they fit the American cans. The spout incorporates a vent tube, no additional vent is needed. It is probably illegal for a company to import them so they may not be available by mail order. They were available at Canadian Tire, Rona, and Ace hardware stores.

For relatively short money, a second heat exchanger can be added to the diesel's cooling system to heat the cabin. While really inefficient use the motor solely for heating, they do work well while motoring.

Which brings up motoring, on the coastal cruising we've been doing we motor far more than we sail for a variety of reasons. We have hydronic heat onboard and can heat the cabin while motoring. On cold days going below to a warm cabin is a great relief and warming the cabin from the engine before we anchor or dock reduces the run time on the hydronic system.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Some quick notes. I got very good output from my solar panel on both Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. Now I didn't go further north so can't talk to output up there, but I can say the further towards the poles you go, you do have the issue of winter and much shortened hours of light. How long to you plan to spend in such areas? If through winters, I might have to retract my no to a windgenerator.....

The CPT is an excellent auto pilot. I would not waste money on another system, spend on the windvane (and Watts and Sea). Between the two you are well covered. If you do go to the Hydrovane, you can add in a very inexpensive tiller autopilot and run the self-steering of the Hydrovane as an autopilot. I did that as a back-up (never needed it).

I used a stove top pressure cooker. It's amazing how little energy they need! Keep you induction hot plate - you'll want it throughout the region of the mid-latitudes....

I'ma not familiar with the Remoska...

I ran minimal refrigeration. I have an old frig/freezer that runs well. It was all I needed. But I'm also well versed on living without refrigeration. I do like having some ice cream from time to time.... LOL

Modern diesel cook stoves are head and shoulders above the old ones I used in the past. It's just not as popular today.

Looking forward to hearing more!

dj

I would like to stay year round at some point but am not sure what is allowed yet as a US citizen, or if i can manage to do this financially/logistically. In the beginning or my first time there, i would probably only stay part of the year or a few months at most and maybe sail back to southern California for work avoiding the worst of the Southern winters. Eventually as i get more experience/ have more money and time, longer stays.

 

[BAD ORCA]

If refrigeration is considered "core" usage, then even an "efficient" one will not fit within an 80Ah/day budget unless it is either very small, or extremely well-insulated. I'd budget 50Ah/day for that alone, assuming it is modest size and has good insulation.

Mark

Thanks Mark. No, at this stage that would be a luxury item if i was sailing south but likely it would be cold enough i could comfortably manage without it. Even here in Southern California, i dont use my refrigeration hardly at all in the winter and the nights only get to the high 40's low 50's. I'm not storing lots of perishables though and have found ways to live without them with canned goods/ substitutes etc...I will be re-building my refrigeration though and it will be a small unit with a LOT of insulation, so maybe i could use it to some degree. A water cooled unit in the Southern waters might be very useable.

 

[dLj]

Styrofoam panels with Velcro can be put up and taken down easily and made into complex shapes. Duct tape makes an excellent covering over the Styrofoam for protection and Velcro attachments...

dj

 

[BAD ORCA]

The jerry cans sold in the US are a PITA because of the spouts, they weren't designed to be used on a sailboat at sea. When we were in Canada this summer, I found replacement spouts for Specter cans, they fit the American cans. The spout incorporates a vent tube, no additional vent is needed. It is probably illegal for a company to import them so they may not be available by mail order. They were available at Canadian Tire, Rona, and Ace hardware stores.

For relatively short money, a second heat exchanger can be added to the diesel's cooling system to heat the cabin. While really inefficient use the motor solely for heating, they do work well while motoring.

Which brings up motoring, on the coastal cruising we've been doing we motor far more than we sail for a variety of reasons. We have hydronic heat onboard and can heat the cabin while motoring. On cold days going below to a warm cabin is a great relief and warming the cabin from the engine before we anchor or dock reduces the run time on the hydronic system.

I was looking into adding one of these. Red Dot R255-10 | Fisheries Supply

Reasonable inexpensive and can be plumbed into the cooling loop on the engine. I agree...since the engine is running, might as well use the free heat.

Reflex also has a diesel stove that can be purchased with a heating loop inside it. I was thinking i'd use that loop for hot water and the engine for cabin heat.

 

[dlochner]

Take a look at these. I have 2 on my boat. They can be located out of the way in a cabinet or with some ducting in an out of the way location.

RL6000 Series

www.suremarineservice.com

If another heat exchanger is added and a small circulation pump the engine system and the heating system can be separated.

Heat Exchangers

www.suremarineservice.com

Of course if you separate the systems you'll need an expansion tank...... Someone should have posted a "Beware of Rabbits" sign.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Take a look at these. I have 2 on my boat. They can be located out of the way in a cabinet or with some ducting in an out of the way location.

RL6000 Series

www.suremarineservice.com

If another heat exchanger is added and a small circulation pump the engine system and the heating system can be separated.

Heat Exchangers

www.suremarineservice.com

Of course if you separate the systems you'll need an expansion tank...... Someone should have posted a "Beware of Rabbits" sign.

lol...someone needs to lock this thread asap. The last page of replies has already added about $15,000 to my future expenditures.

I remember a time not long ago when i used to carry this green colored paper stuff in my back pocket. It had a special folding carrying case for it and everything. I still carry this special folding carrying case nostalgically. I dont recall exactly why, but i have not seen that green paper stuff in years. I wonder if they still make it? I would like to have some more one day.

 

[BAD ORCA]

Styrofoam panels with Velcro can be put up and taken down easily and made into complex shapes. Duct tape makes an excellent covering over the Styrofoam for protection and Velcro attachments...

dj

Interesting idea. I suppose i could do the same with the flexible insulating foam. To be really fancy, i could laminate some thin teak veneer to precut panels so it looks nice and velcro them up to the coach roof sides. Could stow them when sailing in warmer areas. The biggest exposed/uninsulated area will be the coach roof sides and some areas of the sides of the hull between the bilge and the furniture. Removing my beautiful teak and holly floor to insulate under it is not an option so will have to come up with a plan. Maybe i can pour foam some of those areas just to get something in there. Most of the rest of the hull will be insulated pretty well. I'm thinking to a thickness of about 1" in most areas if i can get away with it.

 

[dlochner]

lol...someone needs to lock this thread asap. The last page of replies has already added about $15,000 to my future expenditures.

I remember a time not long ago when i used to carry this green colored paper stuff in my back pocket. It had a special folding carrying case for it and everything. I still carry this special folding carrying case nostalgically. I dont recall exactly why, but i have not seen that green paper stuff in years. I wonder if they still make it? I would like to have some more one day.

It has been replaced by plastic magical properties.

 

[dLj]

Interesting idea. I suppose i could do the same with the flexible insulating foam. To be really fancy, i could laminate some thin teak veneer to precut panels so it looks nice and velcro them up to the coach roof sides. Could stow them when sailing in warmer areas. The biggest exposed/uninsulated area will be the coach roof sides and some areas of the sides of the hull between the bilge and the furniture. Removing my beautiful teak and holly floor to insulate under it is not an option so will have to come up with a plan. Maybe i can pour foam some of those areas just to get something in there. Most of the rest of the hull will be insulated pretty well. I'm thinking to a thickness of about 1" in most areas if i can get away with it.

I was thinking more for windows, hatches, companionway, that leak a lot of cold but you want to put on and off depending. Insulating structure is a different story lots of ways to do that.

dj