Barton Marine removable traveler

[bob45]

Hi All,

I'm planning on relocating my mid boom, cabin top, traveler to in front of my wheel. Does anyone have thoughts, good or bad, on the Barton Marine removable traveler? Are there other between seat travelers i should consider?


also, any ideas on attaching the mainsheet block to boom? Some sort of strap?

 

[dlochner]

Hi All,

I'm planning on relocating my mid boom, cabin top, traveler to in front of my wheel. Does anyone have thoughts, good or bad, on the Barton Marine removable traveler? Are there other between seat travelers i should consider?


also, any ideas on attaching the mainsheet block to boom? Some sort of strap?

Moving the traveller is a topic that comes up frequently. There are several fairly recent threads on this. Generally, the recommendation is to not move the mainsheet location because the potential for damage to the boom and gooseneck go way up. Booms are designed for the expected loads on the boom based on the mainsheet attachment, changing the attachment point changes the loads on the attachment point and the boom, this can cause the boom or the gooseneck to fail.

 

[Tally Ho]

Hi All,

I'm planning on relocating my mid boom, cabin top, traveler to in front of my wheel. Does anyone have thoughts, good or bad, on the Barton Marine removable traveler? Are there other between seat travelers i should consider?


also, any ideas on attaching the mainsheet block to boom? Some sort of strap?

How far after are you moving the traveller? As Dave said, lots of threads discussing the potential issues with this…but most were moving to end of boom sheeting. A few feet back may be OK.

How is your mainsheet attached to the boom now? Can you slide everything back the few feet you are moving the traveller? On my boat, I can slide the blocks a bit on the boom…



If your setup uses a fixed bail, I am not sure how you can move those.

Photos?


Greg

 

[bob45]

How far after are you moving the traveller? As Dave said, lots of threads discussing the potential issues with this…but most were moving to end of boom sheeting. A few feet back may be OK.

How is your mainsheet attached to the boom now? Can you slide everything back the few feet you are moving the traveller? On my boat, I can slide the blocks a bit on the boom…

View attachment 228967 View attachment 228968

If your setup uses a fixed bail, I am not sure how you can move those.

Photos?


Greg

Same set up as you have, and it’s fixed. I was planning on moving to the end of the boom. I’m trying to get main sheet control from the helm.

 

[jssailem]

Here are several ways owners have rigged their boom for the mainsheet block.

This is my boom end rigging.


Selden booms have a track and a loop can slide in the track.


You can retrofit a bale with a bolt that goes through the boom. Be sure you have a sleeve bushing on the bolt so that the boom does not collapse when you tighten the bale in place.


Or like says of old you can put a sling about the boom and attach your block.

 

[bob45]

Moving the traveller is a topic that comes up frequently. There are several fairly recent threads on this. Generally, the recommendation is to not move the mainsheet location because the potential for damage to the boom and gooseneck go way up. Booms are designed for the expected loads on the boom based on the mainsheet attachment, changing the attachment point changes the loads on the attachment point and the boom, this can cause the boom or the gooseneck to fail.

So I have an Islander 34, built a few years after the I36 in this pic. Do you know what kind of setup this is? Could I retro fit mine this way do you think? Work it from either end

 

[PaulK]

People often use Dyneema loops or webbing to attach mainsheet blocks to their booms. Light, simple & inexpensive. Have never heard of the Barton Marine removable traveler until now. For a 34' boat you may need to have something bolted solidly in. It looks like their removable version is only attached at the ends, where it is held down or "captured" by the end fittings. The sheet loads on a 34' boat might turn their extrusion into a pretzel. You would want to check this out. Many other firms make traveler systems and tracks that bolt solidly in place. (Garhauer, Harken, Selden, Shafer...) For crossing between the cockpit seats they often have a wood or fiberglass support that they are also bolted to, to reinforce the track. You do not want the traveler ripping out when you gybe.
Most of the threads dealing with moving travelers are about going from end-boom sheeting (which is what you say you want) to mid-boom sheeting. This increases the forces required to control the sail substantially because of the reduced mechanical advantage of the blocks' position mid-boom. Cabin tops often need additional reinforcement to accommodate the loads. Moving the sheet to the end of the boom has the opposite effect, but the forces still need to be accounted for properly to make sure the setup is strong enough.

 

[bob45]

People often use Dyneema loops or webbing to attach mainsheet blocks to their booms. Light, simple & inexpensive. Have never heard of the Barton Marine removable traveler until now. For a 34' boat you may need to have something bolted solidly in. It looks like their removable version is only attached at the ends, where it is held down or "captured" by the end fittings. The sheet loads on a 34' boat might turn their extrusion into a pretzel. You would want to check this out. Many other firms make traveler systems and tracks that bolt solidly in place. (Garhauer, Harken, Selden, Shafer...) For crossing between the cockpit seats they often have a wood or fiberglass support that they are also bolted to, to reinforce the track. You do not want the traveler ripping out when you gybe.
Most of the threads dealing with moving travelers are about going from end-boom sheeting (which is what you say you want) to mid-boom sheeting. This increases the forces required to control the sail substantially because of the reduced mechanical advantage of the blocks' position mid-boom. Cabin tops often need additional reinforcement to accommodate the loads. Moving the sheet to the end of the boom has the opposite effect, but the forces still need to be accounted for properly to make sure the setup is strong enough.

To make sure I am reading this right, moving the attachment back reduces pressure on boom?

 

[Tally Ho]

It takes less force to move the boom with end boom sheeting because you have more leverage. But it changes / moves the stresses on the boom also…

Greg

 

[dlochner]

To make sure I am reading this right, moving the attachment back reduces pressure on boom?

It changes the pressure. The pressure on the boom is a function of sail area and wind speed and it has 2 primary vectors, horizontal and vertical. The boom acts as a lever which can multiply the force, particularly on the gooseneck which is at the end of the boom while reducing the pressure on the end of the boom. Mid-boom sheeting systems often have multiple attachment points on the boom, mine has 3, which serve to distribute the high loads found on mid-boom systems. End-boom systems typically have one attachment point, the question is how strong is the boom at the end section and how will the mainsheet be attached?

Regarding the Barton system, I see 2 issues with it. First I see little advantage to an end boom traveller that is only 28" long. The purpose of the traveller is to maintain downward pressure on the boom to increase tension on the sail's leech to control sail shape, at best, the traveller car can only move 12" from center(allowing for the width of the traveller car), which at the end of a 10' + boom is not very much, it will be somewhat useful going up wind, but again it is very limited. Off the wind there will be a lot of mainsheet hanging across the leeward cockpit seats and in a gybe a lot of mainsheet flying across the cockpit for people to avoid. This poses a safety hazard.

The other concern is the mounting system. There are 2 brackets which through bolt on the cockpit seat faces. Are the attachment points on your boat strong enough to withstand the pressure from the mainsheet, especially in the case of an accidental gybe?

Having sailed boats with end-boom and mid-boom sheeting, I prefer mid-boom. Getting the mainsheet out of the cockpit provides more room in the cockpit and allows for a dodger and Bimini. It is not as easy to trim the main from the helm when single handing, however, once the mainsheet is trimmed it is primarily adjusted with the traveller. I have long tails on the traveller control lines which reach the helm. This allows the traveller to be adjusted from the helm.

 

[jssailem]

it changes / moves the stresses on the boom also…

This is an advantage. The end of the boom with reduced force puts less stress on the boom.

Just need to make the connection at the boom end a strong one. Utilzation of a Bale or padeye with backing plate.

DO NOT just run a screw into the boom and call it good. IT WILL NOT BE GOOD.

One option is to make the dyneema attachment using a soft shackle.

 

[bob45]

It changes the pressure. The pressure on the boom is a function of sail area and wind speed and it has 2 primary vectors, horizontal and vertical. The boom acts as a lever which can multiply the force, particularly on the gooseneck which is at the end of the boom while reducing the pressure on the end of the boom. Mid-boom sheeting systems often have multiple attachment points on the boom, mine has 3, which serve to distribute the high loads found on mid-boom systems. End-boom systems typically have one attachment point, the question is how strong is the boom at the end section and how will the mainsheet be attached?

Regarding the Barton system, I see 2 issues with it. First I see little advantage to an end boom traveller that is only 28" long. The purpose of the traveller is to maintain downward pressure on the boom to increase tension on the sail's leech to control sail shape, at best, the traveller car can only move 12" from center(allowing for the width of the traveller car), which at the end of a 10' + boom is not very much, it will be somewhat useful going up wind, but again it is very limited. Off the wind there will be a lot of mainsheet hanging across the leeward cockpit seats and in a gybe a lot of mainsheet flying across the cockpit for people to avoid. This poses a safety hazard.

The other concern is the mounting system. There are 2 brackets which through bolt on the cockpit seat faces. Are the attachment points on your boat strong enough to withstand the pressure from the mainsheet, especially in the case of an accidental gybe?

Having sailed boats with end-boom and mid-boom sheeting, I prefer mid-boom. Getting the mainsheet out of the cockpit provides more room in the cockpit and allows for a dodger and Bimini. It is not as easy to trim the main from the helm when single handing, however, once the mainsheet is trimmed it is primarily adjusted with the traveller. I have long tails on the traveller control lines which reach the helm. This allows the traveller to be adjusted from the helm.

Thanks Dave! This is some really good information to consider.

 

[Tally Ho]

This is an advantage. The end of the boom with reduced force puts less stress on the boom.

Just need to make the connection at the boom end a strong one. Utilzation of a Bale or padeye with backing plate.

DO NOT just run a screw into the boom and call it good. IT WILL NOT BE GOOD.

One option is to make the dyneema attachment using a soft shackle.

I would be worried about concentrating the force at the end of the boom. On my mid-boom sheet, I have 3 attachment points. With end of boom sheeting, I assume there is one…so what does that do to the boom?

Greg

 

[jssailem]

Greg. Perhaps the simplest way to look at this is to use a load calculation. Harken has one for the mainsheet.
I have stated that the load is lighter at the end of the boom than in the middle. Would you believe the load in the middle is 2 times the load at the end? Well maybe not exactly two times but close. This is why you need to spread the load on the boom when using a mid boom connection.

14ft boom. 2 points of attachment. One a foot from the boom end (245lbs) and the other seven feet from the end (454 lbs).


That is in 10 knots of wind.
Here is the calculator. https://www.harken.com/en/support/selection-tools/calculators/mainsheet-loading-calculator/

Observed outcomes have more mid boom mainsheet issues than end of boom issues. Especially when sailing is done in high wind conditions. Only time I have seen an end of boom failure was when the boom dipped into an ocean wave
.

 

[dlochner]

Observed outcomes have more mid boom mainsheet issues than end of boom issues. Especially when sailing is done in high wind conditions. Only time I have seen an end of boom failure was when the boom dipped into an ocean wave
.

Do you have a reliable data based reference for this statement?

 

[PaulK]

To make sure I am reading this right, moving the attachment back reduces pressure on boom?

Go to your boat and stand by the boom near the mast with the sheets loose. Find a point 1' from the mast and push the boom from side to side. How easy is it ? Then go to the outer end of the boom and push it from side to side again. You will find it much easier because of the leverage provided by the length of the boom. Trimming the sail works the same way. Attach the sheet at the end and you don't need as much power. Attach it in the middle and you need more.

 

[PaulK]

I would be worried about concentrating the force at the end of the boom. On my mid-boom sheet, I have 3 attachment points. With end of boom sheeting, I assume there is one…so what does that do to the boom?

Greg

Your boom has three mid-boom attachment points in order to spread out the load that mid-boom sheeting calls for. If your sheet ran through only one attachment point on the boom the concentrated forces would likely break the boom. Moving the attachment point to the end of the boom halves the load that mid-boom sheeting requires to handle the same sail area because the lever arm that the sheet is working on is twice as long as the mid-boom setup.

 

[Timm R Oday25]

Interesting discussion . When I initially brought home our Oday with end boom mounting and the traveller in the cockpit , I thought , the mainsheet would be in the way.
Experiance has made me believe the very best place for the mainsheet was where the helmsman could easily reach it .
Especially if one was sailing solo ,or inexperianced crew .

 

[bob45]

Thanks for every ones input on this. some pretty compelling arguments both directions. quite a bit of info to digest. the main reason i wanted to move it was because i get squirrely winds on lake michigan and frequently sail with mostly inexperienced guests and kids. After a particularly vulnerable and essentially stupid situation last year, i realized how dangerous it is to not have control and ability to dump my main from the helm in case of gusts. so that's where all this stems from, more active trimming would have been a bonus.

digging through all this, and looking into the major block companies for ideas, i believe i have found a way to lead my traveller lines to the helm with the help of over the top blocks and fair leads (i may also be able to lead the mainsheet back too, with room for a winch). hopefully it doesn't add too much friction.

Thanks again to this great community for all its collective knowledge

 

[jssailem]

Lead the mainsheet back too, with room for a winch

Bob, with the proper blocks and minimized friction you should not need a winch to handle the mainsheet, EVER!

Your Islander has a main 212sqft. My Cal 35 Cruiser has a main 254sqft. Using a 6to1 block system it is relatively easy for this old sailor to adjust the main on the waters of the Pacific. It is not a racing boat. So there is never the need to get every ounce of power every second of sailing. If a squall comes up I can un power the main by heading up a bit, trim the main, then slide back on to course.

In my sailors opinion, on boats of our size, one never wraps a mainsheet around a winch. It takes too long to release the sheet from a winch. It creates a dangerous condition trying to flick it off the winch inducing twist to the sheet creating a hockle in the line to jam in the blocks.

There is an opportunity with the 6-1 block to trim the sheet by pulling on the sheet using the lines between the blocks. Pull down on one and the sheet comes in. Then pull the end of the sheet to take out the slack. Works even when the sail is full and powered up.