Greetings all! I am trying to purchase a used sailboat in a slip a lake in Arizona. Seller and I initially agreed on price of $26000, contingent upon survey. The survey revealed several issues that needed to be fixed, the worst being need to replace part or all of headsail furler. Boat has been in water x4 years with same bottom paint. Also had holes in fuel line, melted throttle cable housing, several areas needing chafe protection, and a very stained fairly old main sail. Instruments need replacing. After survey and sea trial, my thought was offering $23,0000 which it turns out is exactly the value that the surveyor appraised the boat for. Listing price was 29K. Is there any reason to offer/pay anything over 23K. Boat has been for sale for about 15 months.
How much would you pay after survey?
- Thread starter ric3
- Start date
Welcome to sailboat ownership and the SBO forums. You have chosen wisely the site to post your questions on. It is always good to welcome a new member, and I hope you have a long and enjoyable time on both your boat, when you make the decision to buy, and here with us.
I am not very familiar with the buying process of sailboats. My few purchases have been small and quick, but as an experienced used equipment buyer, and browser of the boating classifieds, I would say 15 months is a long time for a used boat to remain on the market. Your seller is probably motivated.
The mainsail will be expensive to replace, the bottom paint is probably something you should have done anyhow, unless it was just done, and the rest of the items sound fairly minor and the type of items you will have to replace someday anyhow.
It's good to start your new love affair with brand new fuel lines, reliable instruments, and fresh chaffing gear. You're likely to find more that needs attention as you get to know your new boat better, no matter what the survey says. Use the professionally appraised value as your starting point and land on either side of that, depending upon your gut, your bank account, and your conscience.
If you don't mind, please let us know a little more about your sailboat experiences and skill sets. Work you can do yourself may make something like replacing a leaky fuel line trivial, or even the roller-furling headsail. Having to hire a professional to not only replace the roller-furler, but also tune your standing rigging, will add boat bucks to the cost well beyond the part price.
Good luck and keep posting. We especially love pictures.
-Will
I am not very familiar with the buying process of sailboats. My few purchases have been small and quick, but as an experienced used equipment buyer, and browser of the boating classifieds, I would say 15 months is a long time for a used boat to remain on the market. Your seller is probably motivated.
The mainsail will be expensive to replace, the bottom paint is probably something you should have done anyhow, unless it was just done, and the rest of the items sound fairly minor and the type of items you will have to replace someday anyhow.
It's good to start your new love affair with brand new fuel lines, reliable instruments, and fresh chaffing gear. You're likely to find more that needs attention as you get to know your new boat better, no matter what the survey says. Use the professionally appraised value as your starting point and land on either side of that, depending upon your gut, your bank account, and your conscience.
If you don't mind, please let us know a little more about your sailboat experiences and skill sets. Work you can do yourself may make something like replacing a leaky fuel line trivial, or even the roller-furling headsail. Having to hire a professional to not only replace the roller-furler, but also tune your standing rigging, will add boat bucks to the cost well beyond the part price.
Good luck and keep posting. We especially love pictures.
-Will
Is there any reason to offer/pay anything over 23K. Boat has been for sale for about 15 months.
Well, about the only reason that I can think of is that the seller could get p#ssed at the low offer and refuse to sell.
In that case you don't have the boat, but you have saved a lot of money. You can always come back later if you want to.
That aside, you say that the listing price is 29 grand.
What condition of boat is that the pricing for?
One that needs a new main, furler and instruments, etc?
I doubt it.
You can make a list with quotes of what you and the surveyor think the boat needs.
Take your 23 grand offer and show the seller how much you will be spending on top of that.
If it is above his 26 grand price (with that list of to do items I am pretty sure it will be) he should see that you are actually paying more than his asking price for the final product.
Ya never know!
Gary
Well, about the only reason that I can think of is that the seller could get p#ssed at the low offer and refuse to sell.
In that case you don't have the boat, but you have saved a lot of money. You can always come back later if you want to.
That aside, you say that the listing price is 29 grand.
What condition of boat is that the pricing for?
One that needs a new main, furler and instruments, etc?
I doubt it.
You can make a list with quotes of what you and the surveyor think the boat needs.
Take your 23 grand offer and show the seller how much you will be spending on top of that.
If it is above his 26 grand price (with that list of to do items I am pretty sure it will be) he should see that you are actually paying more than his asking price for the final product.
Ya never know!
Gary
It doesn't matter what the surveyor says it's worth. What matters is what it is worth to you. Unless you are going to use the Survey to walk away from the deal and get your money back, they survey is yours not the sellers. The bank (if you are getting a loan) and the insurance company will care about the surveyor's valuation.
If the boat with its known problems is worth $23K to you, then make that offer, if it is worth less make that offer. Be mindful that there has never been a survey that has found all of the issues with an older used boat. Things always turn up as you get to know the boat and start outfitting it. The seller can accept, refuse, or counter your offer. He's been trying to get rid of the boat for over a year and he is paying storage for a boat he doesn't want. Use that to your advantage.
If the boat with its known problems is worth $23K to you, then make that offer, if it is worth less make that offer. Be mindful that there has never been a survey that has found all of the issues with an older used boat. Things always turn up as you get to know the boat and start outfitting it. The seller can accept, refuse, or counter your offer. He's been trying to get rid of the boat for over a year and he is paying storage for a boat he doesn't want. Use that to your advantage.
You have several options. You can stay with the $26k with the proviso that ALL of the work in the survey gets addressed, or my favorite.... offer the $23k with a 20% hold back to cover the contingencies that the surveyor almost certainly missed.
Make sure the owner is equipped with the survey.. If your deal falls apart, the owner who now has the survey is required to disclose the survey to any potential buyers...
Make sure the owner is equipped with the survey.. If your deal falls apart, the owner who now has the survey is required to disclose the survey to any potential buyers...
When buying an older boat I don't think you should expect to get new sails and updated instruments. If I were the seller I would not want to grant concessions in price for those items.y
The leaking fuel line on the other hand should be fixed as well as the melted housing (Why did it melt?).
Are you entitled to a new bottom? I don't really think so. But I would look for a concession in price on that issue anyway. I wouldn't want a boat with a gnarly bottom. But the path to a good bottom could involve completely stripping all the paint off, applying barrier coat and then new bottom paint. Sounds simple but could be expensive.
If the boat was represented as having roller furling and the sails are for roller furling than I expect that the furling works and is likely to endure for years.
If you are queasy about making a low ball offer, consider that when when you sell the boat you will get a low offer if the boat has deficiencies.
I think the boat value is what the market will bear for it. So think what could you turn around and sell it for?
The leaking fuel line on the other hand should be fixed as well as the melted housing (Why did it melt?).
Are you entitled to a new bottom? I don't really think so. But I would look for a concession in price on that issue anyway. I wouldn't want a boat with a gnarly bottom. But the path to a good bottom could involve completely stripping all the paint off, applying barrier coat and then new bottom paint. Sounds simple but could be expensive.
If the boat was represented as having roller furling and the sails are for roller furling than I expect that the furling works and is likely to endure for years.
If you are queasy about making a low ball offer, consider that when when you sell the boat you will get a low offer if the boat has deficiencies.
I think the boat value is what the market will bear for it. So think what could you turn around and sell it for?
Offer what you think it is worth, understanding it is in a bit of a neglected state (but at least you know it floats).
I didn’t see where you told us what make/model age of boat you are looking at…might help if we knew that.
I bought my current boat for $22k, about 9 years ago. The boat was put on the market for $30k 15 years ago…I missed out on buying it at that time, and it was purchased for $25,500. So about a 15% discount off the asking price. I bought it from that owner for $22k, knowing he had installed a new chart plotter and the boat was in excellent condition…a 1988 O’Day 322.
I believe offering 15-20% below asking price is acceptable. More if the boat is neglected or it is a “distress” sale. Pay more if you think the boat is unique, or in outstanding condition.
Good luck!
Greg
I didn’t see where you told us what make/model age of boat you are looking at…might help if we knew that.
I bought my current boat for $22k, about 9 years ago. The boat was put on the market for $30k 15 years ago…I missed out on buying it at that time, and it was purchased for $25,500. So about a 15% discount off the asking price. I bought it from that owner for $22k, knowing he had installed a new chart plotter and the boat was in excellent condition…a 1988 O’Day 322.
I believe offering 15-20% below asking price is acceptable. More if the boat is neglected or it is a “distress” sale. Pay more if you think the boat is unique, or in outstanding condition.
Good luck!
Greg
I would be most concerned with why the cables melted. They should not have happened. Also if the fuel lines are leaking the diesel smell is hard to get rid of. I turned down a boat that the survey found leaking diesel. Sails can be replaced, roller furling can be replaced but pay attention to the things that are hard to fix like the diesel smell and tracking down why cables are melting. Also think about how much you will end up spending in the end and make sure that is still worth it to you.
I've have a friend who sails out of Scorpion Bay Marina and we've sailed with her once when visiting her. I believe another member here on SBO still has a boat there.
The items you have mentioned are a sign that the boat has been neglected. Maybe the owner is using her as a slip condo and the cabin is in great condition and the owner let all other things go?
You will find other issues that the surveyor missed. IE: The same friend bought a boat here on the east coast. It received a good survey. During the delivery the steering became very stiff. Once in the marina they found the Edson steering system needed to be replaced. Surveyors don't open sealed compartments/hatches so it was missed.
Consider how much is the boat worth to you? Do you already know Lake Pleasant and what it's like to sail there or are you just starting out? Are you a DIY type of guy?
The lake is land locked and there is no travel lift so the number of buyers are limited. Repair facilities are also limited.
Figure you probably will need a new furler ($3k), a new main ($4K) and engine compartment repairs ($2k) if you don't do the repairs yourself. I think an offer of $20k is more appropriate.
Are there any other sailboats for sail on the lake to compare to?
Anything above $20k is what you are willing to pay for having a boat on that lake. You're the only one who knows that figure.
The items you have mentioned are a sign that the boat has been neglected. Maybe the owner is using her as a slip condo and the cabin is in great condition and the owner let all other things go?
You will find other issues that the surveyor missed. IE: The same friend bought a boat here on the east coast. It received a good survey. During the delivery the steering became very stiff. Once in the marina they found the Edson steering system needed to be replaced. Surveyors don't open sealed compartments/hatches so it was missed.
Consider how much is the boat worth to you? Do you already know Lake Pleasant and what it's like to sail there or are you just starting out? Are you a DIY type of guy?
The lake is land locked and there is no travel lift so the number of buyers are limited. Repair facilities are also limited.
Figure you probably will need a new furler ($3k), a new main ($4K) and engine compartment repairs ($2k) if you don't do the repairs yourself. I think an offer of $20k is more appropriate.
Are there any other sailboats for sail on the lake to compare to?
Anything above $20k is what you are willing to pay for having a boat on that lake. You're the only one who knows that figure.
I can't answer your question directly. But here's what I do know.
I know how difficult this is, but don't fall in love with the boat until *after* you buy her.
Like others have said, it's your money and you want to get the best value from it.
Side note: Consciously or not, a lot of buyers wait until after the survey before making a decision. A survey works best when used to *confirm* your decision to buy. In other words, before even thinking of a survey, bring a flashlight for the dark corners, inspect the sails & rigging, tap the hull, even ask to take her out for a sail, run the engine, etc. Take an hour, two hours, visit the boat more than once if you can. Only then should you make your decision. And if you're ready to buy, then formulate an offer and call in a surveyor. The bonus is that you'll be more informed to ask the pro surveyor about things that concern you.
I know how difficult this is, but don't fall in love with the boat until *after* you buy her.
Like others have said, it's your money and you want to get the best value from it.
Side note: Consciously or not, a lot of buyers wait until after the survey before making a decision. A survey works best when used to *confirm* your decision to buy. In other words, before even thinking of a survey, bring a flashlight for the dark corners, inspect the sails & rigging, tap the hull, even ask to take her out for a sail, run the engine, etc. Take an hour, two hours, visit the boat more than once if you can. Only then should you make your decision. And if you're ready to buy, then formulate an offer and call in a surveyor. The bonus is that you'll be more informed to ask the pro surveyor about things that concern you.
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There's some excellent advice by others. One thing that I haven't seen much detail is bottom paint. It's a maintenance item unless it has significantly built up. Then it's many hours with a scraper and sander or media blasting followed by barrier coat and bottom paint. When negotiating, always use the labor rates of professionals
You indicate "holes in the fuel line" and a "melted throttle cable housing." This would seem to indicate that the surveyor only did the survey on the hard or if in a slip, did not take it out for a "sea trial" part of the survey. Are you even sure the engine and drive train don't have issues? It could have a multitude of issues such as a bad prop, bent shaft, bad motor mounts, cutlass bearing problems, excessive vibration, low oil pressure etc. Not saying it does and even an underway portion of the survey might not reveal all the problems but it might and those might be very expensive to repair. If there are actually "holes" in the fuel lines then how did they get the engine started? If the throttle cable housing is melted is it an indication of a previous fire or overheating?
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,208
Hello, @ric3, and welcome to the SBO forum.
I see you have completed some of the ASA training courses. You shared that you have been sailing off and on for several years. The query about a purchase sounds like you are getting serious about sailing and playing on the water.
While Arizona had several (I refrained from saying "many"), only a few can support a 32-foot sailboat. Deciding to spend $20K or more on a boat implies you anticipate spending some time on the water. The 32 Hunter can serve as a small cabin up on the lake.
Your classes in Keelboat sailing and Basic coastal cruising suggest an interest in adventure sailing. If buying this boat is a way of being close to home and building sailing skills before expanding the waters you desire to explore, then one must consider selling the boat as a part of the cost when buying. From a picture I found of a 1991 Hunter Vision 32 in Scorpion Bay, AZ, it looked clean on the outside. @Ward H provided some good numbers above for the repairs you identified as needed. If this boat has been sitting, then there must be a reason. At about $17K, you could do the repairs, use her for a year or so, and then put her up for sale at a price that would attract a future sailor in your situation.
If I were in Arizona and wanted to sail a boat, I would look at boats I could trailer to the "few lakes" in the state. The right boat could even be trailed to the California coastline, where I could practice my ASA 103 training.
It is all about how you wish to spend your money and what you want to experience on the water.
I see you have completed some of the ASA training courses. You shared that you have been sailing off and on for several years. The query about a purchase sounds like you are getting serious about sailing and playing on the water.
While Arizona had several (I refrained from saying "many"), only a few can support a 32-foot sailboat. Deciding to spend $20K or more on a boat implies you anticipate spending some time on the water. The 32 Hunter can serve as a small cabin up on the lake.
Your classes in Keelboat sailing and Basic coastal cruising suggest an interest in adventure sailing. If buying this boat is a way of being close to home and building sailing skills before expanding the waters you desire to explore, then one must consider selling the boat as a part of the cost when buying. From a picture I found of a 1991 Hunter Vision 32 in Scorpion Bay, AZ, it looked clean on the outside. @Ward H provided some good numbers above for the repairs you identified as needed. If this boat has been sitting, then there must be a reason. At about $17K, you could do the repairs, use her for a year or so, and then put her up for sale at a price that would attract a future sailor in your situation.
If I were in Arizona and wanted to sail a boat, I would look at boats I could trailer to the "few lakes" in the state. The right boat could even be trailed to the California coastline, where I could practice my ASA 103 training.
It is all about how you wish to spend your money and what you want to experience on the water.
If you buy it as is, who will take on the repairs? You or will you have someone else do them?
If someone else, you could be looking at $10 000-$15 000 repair bill. I'd try to get some estimates for the repairs. Then offer the seller the option of them to make the repairs or reduce the price.
The sails and the instruments should not be factored in your decision, as you would have considered them as part of our initial offer (these are plain sight items).
In my experience, the surveyor values are always above market, as they often rely on LIST price database, not final closing prices.
I'd offer $10 000 less than their original asking price, let them fix everything or walk away..... there will be other boats.
If someone else, you could be looking at $10 000-$15 000 repair bill. I'd try to get some estimates for the repairs. Then offer the seller the option of them to make the repairs or reduce the price.
The sails and the instruments should not be factored in your decision, as you would have considered them as part of our initial offer (these are plain sight items).
In my experience, the surveyor values are always above market, as they often rely on LIST price database, not final closing prices.
I'd offer $10 000 less than their original asking price, let them fix everything or walk away..... there will be other boats.
This is good advice. I have family in Arizona and have scouted some sailing locations with them. They claim that Arizona has more boats per capita than any other state. OK, maybe. I don't argue with in laws. I would want to be able to trailer around. Lake Havasu is the best venue. Lake Meade is in play. But you can't rule out that the Gulf of California (Sea of Cortez) is only 3 to 4 hours away from Arizona population centers - maybe more for launching locations. Lake Pleasant was very picturesque but I wouldn't put a keel boat in there.
I decided if I move to Arizona I would give up sailing and take up fly fishing.
Is the boat a 32' Hunter, as suggested by your personal info? This one: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1991-hunter-vision-32-9066413/? The boat is 23 years old, so some wear & tear is to be expected. Old sails and instruments are not a surprise, but aren't worth a lot either. Besides what your surveyor found, it is getting to be time to replace the standing rigging too. There are other Hunter Vision 32's on the market with both higher and lower asking prices. Perhaps the ones with higher prices have new shrouds & stays and new sails. Perhaps their fuel lines don't have leaks and they don't need new r/f gear. Perhaps the one with a lower price than the one in AZ is actually in better shape than the one you're looking at but has a more eager seller. There are lots of variables involved with a boat sale. In light of the fuel line and engine questions on this boat it might make sense to adjust your offer down as you suggest in your OP and put perhaps $5000 of that in escrow, subject to the engine running and the boat maneuvering properly under power. The boat's been for sale for more than a year. If the owner doesn't like your offer he can counter, and you can increase your offer by $100 to show him that. your'e not going to go up much. If he's paying for a slip by the month, he'll take your offer.
I want to thank everyone for their comments on this. I am so fortunate to have such great input from knowledgeable sailors. I did end up offering 23K for the 1991 Hunter Vision 32 and my offer was accepted. Despite the defects I had mentioned, the boat is generally in good condition overall, just a little neglected by a gentleman who developed some health problems. I found a video from the prior owner before the boat came to AZ a yearl agoe, and it looks to be in nearly identical condition. This will actually be my 2nd sailboat. This year I also purchased a 15 ft Happycat Evolution, an inflatable catamaran, that I sailed for a few months. Unfortunately, it takes a bit of time and effort to assemble, and was forced to stop using it due to a neck problem requiring major surgery. Being stuck at home recuperating from 5 level posterior cervical fusion, unable to drive, thinking about sailing, I came to the realization that I need a real sailboat. While I appreciate the ideal of a trailerable boat, I have been trailering power boats for 48 years and I am sick of trailering boats. We still have a Supra SE450 that we trailer and wakesurf on, but much less often than previously. Lake Pleasant, in Arizona, is the only close lake with room to sail. It is an hour away, so relatively convenient. I do want my tiny cabin at the lake that I can sail around or camp out in, and hopefully hone my sailing skills. Its got a nice view from the slip, decent facilities, and a restaurant and bar at the other end of the docks. I would like to teach my sons to sail, and possibly even become an instructor. I would love to go back east during the summer and volunteer to teach sailing at a camp in Connecticut that I attended 50 years ago, where I first sailed on a tiny sailfish. Being retired for the past 4 years, I am looking forward to working on my new project, cleaning up and fixing up my new sailboat. I just hope I am able to do most of the repairs myself. Once I am more proficient at sailing, then I would like to charter some nicer boats in California and elsewhere and even consider buying something on the coast. Unfortunately though, my wife in prone to sea sickness on the ocean. I am hoping that when her sailing skills improve to the point that she can Captain the boat, she will be more distracted by the excitement of sailing and suffer less from the motion. I will attach pictures to another text shortly, but wanted to respond to the comments thus far.
Thanks again to all!
Thanks again to all!
There are always two prices on any used boat for sale.
There is the seller's price, often based on his/her personal experiences on the boat, like teaching the kids to sail, or some wonderfully romantic weekends aboard, etc.
The other is what the buyer is willing to pay. The cardinal rule here is to never become emotionally involved in a boat you do not yet own. If the buyer does, then very often they will ignore parts of the survey, and over pay considerably, especially if they think they can do, or afford to have any necessary repairs done..
Don't be in a hurry to buy a boat before you have sailed on a lot of different boats, as the features vary considerably. There are always plenty of boats for sale, if the owner of the one you are looking at won't sell the boat for what you want to pay.
There is the seller's price, often based on his/her personal experiences on the boat, like teaching the kids to sail, or some wonderfully romantic weekends aboard, etc.
The other is what the buyer is willing to pay. The cardinal rule here is to never become emotionally involved in a boat you do not yet own. If the buyer does, then very often they will ignore parts of the survey, and over pay considerably, especially if they think they can do, or afford to have any necessary repairs done..
Don't be in a hurry to buy a boat before you have sailed on a lot of different boats, as the features vary considerably. There are always plenty of boats for sale, if the owner of the one you are looking at won't sell the boat for what you want to pay.
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