Soft Deck Safety

[harry_sailor]

Hi there- I'm currently looking into purchasing a 1983 O'Day 39. The boat is in apparently great condition- some minor cosmetic issues, but otherwise in very nice condition with no signs of intrusion (within the cabin), lots of recent upgrades/repairs, and was very well cared for being used for ASA courses over the past decade. I have a survey from last year done for insurance purposes as well as pre-purchase survey completed this week- and while a few other minor issues have been found (that will be fixed by seller) there is one that keeps coming up- moisture/delamination in a number of locations on the deck/ in the cockpit, including at the chainplates. The owner rebedded the deck hardware a few years ago, and it seems like that is a good start to mitigating the issues, but I'm having trouble finding a straight answer on the internet as to how severe of a concern this issue is. I understand that fixing the issue is something that could cost as much as the boat is worth- or more- but I can't find an answer as to whether this is an immediate safety issue, or this is something that could be addressed at some point down the road. It seems to be that most boats built before this century have this issue to some extent, and I'd love any advice/info as to how much of a concern (safety and resale-wise) this issue is.

I appreciate all of the help!

Thanks!

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I doubt any 40 yr old boat doesn’t have/had some rebidding done along the way. But rebidding doesn’t fix the delamination or rot. In other words, rebedding mitigates nothing except further damage.

I have no knowledge of how and to what the chainplates are attached but I believe every Hunter ever made has a wood/balsa core above the WL and if correct and the material to which the chainplates are attached is damaged from water, I wouldn’t even consider buying it until the area(s) have been exposed, examined and thoroughly identified. Bad things happen when rigging fails.

If the plates are fixed to exposed bulkheads, examining the security of them is more straightforward.

 

[dlochner]

While it would be best to have decks as dry today as they were when they were built, the reality in most older boats is that there is some wet core on the deck. Sooner or later the wood will completely rot and the deck will loose it structural integrity, but who knows when that day will come.

The chainplates should pass through the deck and not be attached to them without substantial attachment to the bulkhead or knee below the deck. The critical part of the chain plate is where it attaches to the bulkhead or knee. Rotted wood there is bad and can cause a structural failure.

Repairing wet core in small areas is not technically difficult, cut off the skin, dig out the rotted core, install new core, glass a new skin, and paint/gelcoat/apply nonskid. Time consuming, depending on the size, and that's were the expense comes in, labor isn't cheap unless it is yours.

 

[kappykaplan]

Repairing wet core in small areas is not technically difficult, cut off the skin, dig out the rotted core, install new core, glass a new skin, and paint/gelcoat/apply nonskid. Time consuming, depending on the size, and that's were the expense comes in, labor isn't cheap unless it is yours.

 

[dLj]

Hi there- I'm currently looking into purchasing a 1983 O'Day 39. The boat is in apparently great condition- some minor cosmetic issues, but otherwise in very nice condition with no signs of intrusion (within the cabin), lots of recent upgrades/repairs, and was very well cared for being used for ASA courses over the past decade. I have a survey from last year done for insurance purposes as well as pre-purchase survey completed this week- and while a few other minor issues have been found (that will be fixed by seller) there is one that keeps coming up- moisture/delamination in a number of locations on the deck/ in the cockpit, including at the chainplates. The owner rebedded the deck hardware a few years ago, and it seems like that is a good start to mitigating the issues, but I'm having trouble finding a straight answer on the internet as to how severe of a concern this issue is. I understand that fixing the issue is something that could cost as much as the boat is worth- or more- but I can't find an answer as to whether this is an immediate safety issue, or this is something that could be addressed at some point down the road. It seems to be that most boats built before this century have this issue to some extent, and I'd love any advice/info as to how much of a concern (safety and resale-wise) this issue is.

I appreciate all of the help!

Thanks!

Got a survey map of where the moisture is found? Got numbers of % moisture in those areas? Without that kind of hard data nobody can answer your question. When were the chain plates replaced - if ever? Can you see the chain plates? Got photos?

The extent of moisture intrusion is needed to be known. The biggest concern from what you've said so far is the area of the chain plates. Having soft decks there indicates water intrusion in that area. Looking at the condition of the chain plates plus the attachments to the structure would be a safety issue.

dj

 

[Davidasailor26]

On their more midsize models I know O’Day anchored the upper and aft lower shrouds into the hull pan, but the forward lower shrouds only went to a plate embedded in the deck. I don’t know if they did the same on the larger 39, but if so any moisture in the deck would be a bigger concern to me.

 

[harry_sailor]

On their more midsize models I know O’Day anchored the upper and aft lower shrouds into the hull pan, but the forward lower shrouds only went to a plate embedded in the deck. I don’t know if they did the same on the larger 39, but if so any moisture in the deck would be a bigger concern to me.

The former is true for the 39. The the upper and aft lower shrouds run all the way to the hull, but forward lower are terminated into the deck. Fittings themselves look to be in great condition as well as the actual shrouds.

 

[harry_sailor]

Got a survey map of where the moisture is found? Got numbers of % moisture in those areas? Without that kind of hard data nobody can answer your question. When were the chain plates replaced - if ever? Can you see the chain plates? Got photos?

The extent of moisture intrusion is needed to be known. The biggest concern from what you've said so far is the area of the chain plates. Having soft decks there indicates water intrusion in that area. Looking at the condition of the chain plates plus the attachments to the structure would be a safety issue.

dj

Not a map, but I do have a list. Included on the list is both port and aft deck where the chainplates are bedded. I can reply with more info when I have the survey from this week in my hands as well, and I'm working to put together some pictures as well. The surveyor did not provide specific moisture readings, just stated that they were apparently elevated and that the sounds from the taps were indicative of delamination. That being said, two of the three shrouds are run into the hull, which is solid fiberglass on the '83 39. I appreciate your time and will respond with more info when I get the chance to get more pictures.

 

[harry_sailor]

I doubt any 40 yr old boat doesn’t have/had some rebidding done along the way. But rebidding doesn’t fix the delamination or rot. In other words, rebedding mitigates nothing except further damage.

I have no knowledge of how and to what the chainplates are attached but I believe every Hunter ever made has a wood/balsa core above the WL and if correct and the material to which the chainplates are attached is damaged from water, I wouldn’t even consider buying it until the area(s) have been exposed, examined and thoroughly identified. Bad things happen when rigging fails.

If the plates are fixed to exposed bulkheads, examining the security of them is more straightforward.

Thank you for your response.

Two of the three chainplates are bedded into fiberglass bulkheads below/ behind the settees, with the forward lower bedded just into the hull. From what I can tell the connection is secure and there isn't any sign of issue with these connections. Pictures to follow.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Thank you for your response.

Two of the three chainplates are bedded into fiberglass bulkheads below/ behind the settees, with the forward lower bedded just into the hull. From what I can tell the connection is secure and there isn't any sign of issue with these connections. Pictures to follow.

The pictures will help us better understand the potential for any chainplates issues.

Our son had an Oday of that vintage with leak/ core rot/ delamination issues. Unfortunately, it was a while ago and I can’t recall specifically what was damaged because of water intrusion but his fix was to move the chainplates outboard to the topsides rather than attempt scarfing in new wood. On his boat, all chainplates were fixed to either wood bulkheads or wood glassed sandwich in the hull.

 

[Tally Ho]

On my 1988 322, both sets of shrouds are anchored through the deck to stringers attached to the hull (using round rods), and to the floor pan. You can see the 2 rods for the port shrouds in this photo.

Greg

 

[higgs]

Lake Michigan is serious sailing where you are likely to encounter some serious loads on your rig. Those forward shrouds would be a big concern to me. How far the wet balsa goes is the big issue. If it is just a couple inches that is not too bad of a fix. More than that you are looking at a lot more work.

 

[harry_sailor]

On my 1988 322, both sets of shrouds are anchored through the deck to stringers attached to the hull (using round rods), and to the floor pan. You can see the 2 rods for the port shrouds in this photo.

View attachment 228700

Greg

See attached from the survey. Unfortunately I don't have a picture of where the chainplates interface with the hull at the moment.

 

[harry_sailor]

Lake Michigan is serious sailing where you are likely to encounter some serious loads on your rig. Those forward shrouds would be a big concern to me. How far the wet balsa goes is the big issue. If it is just a couple inches that is not too bad of a fix. More than that you are looking at a lot more work.

I know that well, I've sailed the great lakes on my smaller boat for a few years now. Is the most reliable way to measure the extent to drill holes, or is the moisture meter reliable enough?

 

[dlochner]

I know that well, I've sailed the great lakes on my smaller boat for a few years now. Is the most reliable way to measure the extent to drill holes, or is the moisture meter reliable enough?

Depends on the skill of the surveyor. On fiberglass hulls the absolute measurements can be unreliable, however the relative measurements are usually pretty good. By this I mean if the measurement in point A is 20% and point B is 30% you can be sure B is wetter than A but they may or may not be 20% and 30%, could be 15% and 25% or 30% and 40%. The trick is getting them calibrated.

Understanding The Moisture Meter - Marine How To

The Electrophysics CT-33 Moisture Meter I've always been a big proponent of boat owners, and more importantly boat buyers, owning a moisture meter. I don't suggest this because I want every DIY boater to think they are a surveyor, or to

marinehowto.com

 

[FastOlson]

To reiterate again, as the saying goes...
The only reason for deck coring to get moist, and then to rot, is a Refusal by the owner(s) to perform Preventative Maintenance. It's not complicated, at all. Period. If no one has completely REBEDDED 100% of the deck fittings at the thirty year anniversary of the original build, this will happen to any boat. Brand and OEM build procedures will make a difference, but after 25 ++ years, the problem is the same. Doesn't matter whether it's a Valiant or a Venture.

I recall a discussion with a mechanic decades ago about regular maintenance on sailboats and how unnecessary so many of his service calls should have been.
He would shake his head and say: "Why in the heck do owners wonder why it's called Preventative Maintenance anyway?!
(And like all the few marine mechanics in our area, he was always overwhelmed with calls for service and repairs... and would much rather work on boats that were well kept up.)

Re-Bed all the deck/port fittings once. Then you're good for another 3 decades. And when you open hatch during the rainy season you will be greeted by a DRY interior.

Tomorrow: no boat talk. Enjoy that roasted bird and the sweet potatoes.... and the green beans with the crispy little onion rings on top that always show up!

Edit: O'DAY 39 - sailboatdata Is this the model? Boat in question-- lead or iron keel?

 

[Joe]

Depends on the skill of the surveyor. On fiberglass hulls the absolute measurements can be unreliable, however the relative measurements are usually pretty good. By this I mean if the measurement in point A is 20% and point B is 30% you can be sure B is wetter than A but they may or may not be 20% and 30%, could be 15% and 25% or 30% and 40%. The trick is getting them calibrated.

Understanding The Moisture Meter - Marine How To

The Electrophysics CT-33 Moisture Meter I've always been a big proponent of boat owners, and more importantly boat buyers, owning a moisture meter. I don't suggest this because I want every DIY boater to think they are a surveyor, or to

marinehowto.com

Thanks for this link... mandatory reading for all sailboat owners IMHO

 

[harry_sailor]

To reiterate again, as the saying goes...
The only reason for deck coring to get moist, and then to rot, is a Refusal by the owner(s) to perform Preventative Maintenance. It's not complicated, at all. Period. If no one has completely REBEDDED 100% of the deck fittings at the thirty year anniversary of the original build, this will happen to any boat. Brand and OEM build procedures will make a difference, but after 25 ++ years, the problem is the same. Doesn't matter whether it's a Valiant or a Venture.

I recall a discussion with a mechanic decades ago about regular maintenance on sailboats and how unnecessary so many of his service calls should have been.
He would shake his head and say: "Why in the heck do owners wonder why it's called Preventative Maintenance anyway?!
(And like all the few marine mechanics in our area, he was always overwhelmed with calls for service and repairs... and would much rather work on boats that were well kept up.)

Re-Bed all the deck/port fittings once. Then you're good for another 3 decades. And when you open hatch during the rainy season you will be greeted by a DRY interior.

Tomorrow: no boat talk. Enjoy that roasted bird and the sweet potatoes.... and the green beans with the crispy little onion rings on top that always show up!

Edit: O'DAY 39 - sailboatdata Is this the model? Boat in question-- lead or iron keel?

Thanks for all of the info. Looking forward to some pumpkin pie personally. Enjoy the holiday.
Yes, that is the boat. It's an iron keel.

 

[kappykaplan]

Looking forward to some pumpkin pie personally. Enjoy the holiday.

Same to you and yours!

 

[Project_Mayhem]

If there's existing rot/wet core, then the fittings are rebedded, does the rot spread and if so, how fast?