1993 Catalina 30 water heater replacements?

[Don S/V ILLusion]

This is why I don't generally post in forums. You could have said nothing or something helpful, as other on this thread have, but you chose to be snarky and disrespectful.

I think I know why you feel that way. Like most people, I found your lecture both offensive and condescending.
When you “talk down” to people you don’t know, many of whom have a vast knowledge of the topic, you might not act so surprised by the response.
Regardless, hope you find the panacea you seek.

 

[dLj]

OK, I see replies in the vein of, "This is normal" and "What's the problem, its always been done this way" and "What else is there?". It seems some folks need enlightenment.
I don't know if any of you folks that replied are live aboard folks and, if you are, do you live aboard at a marina? If so, you don't understand the issues faced when living aboard and spending a lot of time anchored in coves and such (like over 60% of the time), and on a mooring the rest (which is almost the same but in a more populated area). This is like boondocking in an RV. No water hookup, no shore power and no easy access to diesel fuel. You have to generate your own power, either through the use of diesel or solar, solve your water supply issue, either through aux tanks to augment your onboard tanks or by making your own via desalination and heat water, again, diesel or electric (diesel powered if you don't have shore power) or by propane.
As you can see, diesel is a common way to do all of these but diesel is a resource that I cannot go to shore in my dinghy and easily obtain. I do not want to carry and haul diesel fuel around by hand for this, it is stupid and unnecessary and dangerous.
It appears from these comments that the boating community is about 20 years behind the RV and Truck Camper community. Both have to solve the same problems as live aboard sailors, they just do it on land.
What else is there? Many new Truck Campers and RVs come with propane fired On Demand units or small 5-6 gallon propane water heaters, like mini home units. Apart from not having to use my diesel engine for everything and use a commodity that is not easily replaceable in the above scenario, I already have propane on board for the stove, oven and grill. 5lb propane tanks are easily transported in a dinghy and safer than hauling a jerry can full of diesel. Propane is better for this purpose in every way than diesel and, apart from the issues already listed, is better for the environment than diesel. Also, nothing ruins a beatiful, peaceful morning like some idiot firing up their engine and scaring away all the wildlife on land and sea and irritating the folks anchored close by.
So I was hoping that someone had switched their old fashioned, "We've always done it this way, why isn't that good enough for you", to something that the rest of folks in the live off the grid community have been doing for years. I'll go look in the RV and Camper forums I guess.

@Mandack So with all due respect, I've been watching this thread with some minor interest as I may potentially be looking, in the not distant future, to change my hot water system on my boat. Then I begin to see back and forth's about snarky replies and I was a bit confused as I was just watching from a distance so to speak and not paying close attention.... So I went back to the very first post and began reading the posts in order - the above included post is from you. And one I would consider pretty snarky. It is the first snarky post in this thread. So, again with all due respect, you brought the snarky replies on yourself by initiating that whole scenario.

I don't know how long you've been on this forum, but the folks posting above this post of yours were simply asking questions given your initial post was rather unclear. Just an observation. And feel free to give me as snarky a reply as you wish. I have pretty thick skin....

As to water heaters on boats - since I'm of the belief that a post should contain information useful to the greater community - while in some areas looking into what the RV world does can be useful, one does have to be cautious of where it can and cannot apply. A previous post did that well talking about the difference between propane on a RV and in a boat. In my opinion, I would never use propane for a hot water heater on a boat for additional reasons beyond that already mentioned. Propane storage on a boat is a concern, and having enough just for a stove keeps me pretty much maxed out on planning for that. You mentioned not being easily able to get diesel, getting propane is as difficult if not more difficult. Using propane to heat water would greatly increase the amount of propane needed on the boat. I don't know what you use for a stove, but as mine is propane, I know I couldn't possibly carry enough additional propane to handle heating water.

Heating water has a large energy requirement. Most common hot water heaters on boats used engine heat and shore power, you can use either when using the boat. My hot water tank is similar, and because of the energy required to heat water, my electrical element cannot be run off my house batteries - it can only be run off shore power or if I wish to run a generator (same thing really). So for long distance or remote cruising, I rely on heating the water through using my engine. On long trips, I don't bother with hot water. I use the ocean and rinse afterwards with whatever temperature water comes out of my cockpit shower at the time. If I were sailing in higher latitudes, I might want to change that. I am very interested in learning about other ways to make hot water.

dj

 

[dlochner]

I am very interested in learning about other ways to make hot water.

Second Star has a 6 gallon Raritan HW tank which can heat water through electricity (120vac, 12a) or from hot water from the hydronic heating system.

Water for the hydronic heating system can be heated one of two ways, through a small diesel heater (Webasto TSL17) or from the engine. The HW tank has an aqua stat that will call from heat if the tank temp goes below 100°F. If if the system is set to engine heat, then the circulation pump starts. If the system is set to run the heater then the heater ignites and runs until the water temp reaches 125°. To keep the cabin from becoming a sauna in warm weather the fan units, which pump warm air into the cabin, have a hi/lo/off switch. There is a little heat emitted from the fan units and hoses when the fan is off, but not much and it helps to dry some the lockers in which the hoses and fan units are located.

When we're motoring a lot, like on the ICW, the engine heat keeps everything warm, when it is cold and the heater is running, the HW tank acts as a reservoir of warm water which speeds up the time it takes for the fan units to reach operating temperature.

 

[dLj]

Second Star has a 6 gallon Raritan HW tank which can heat water through electricity (120vac, 12a) or from hot water from the hydronic heating system.

That sounds pretty much spot on for my hot water heater also, that's 1440 watts of energy - as I have a 2 KW inverter, I felt it was too close to max output on my inverter to run my hot water tank through that inverter so I pulled it out of the 120V AC system that runs out of my inverter - it originally was wired to be able to run off my inverter. I could just see myself not realizing the hot water tank was pulling power to heat water while I plugged in a power tool, causing too much power getting pulled through my inverter and blowing it. Now that would be an expensive "oh sh!t"....

Water for the hydronic heating system can be heated one of two ways, through a small diesel heater (Webasto TSL17) or from the engine. The HW tank has an aqua stat that will call from heat if the tank temp goes below 100°F. If if the system is set to engine heat, then the circulation pump starts. If the system is set to run the heater then the heater ignites and runs until the water temp reaches 125°. To keep the cabin from becoming a sauna in warm weather the fan units, which pump warm air into the cabin, have a hi/lo/off switch. There is a little heat emitted from the fan units and hoses when the fan is off, but not much and it helps to dry some the lockers in which the hoses and fan units are located.

When we're motoring a lot, like on the ICW, the engine heat keeps everything warm, when it is cold and the heater is running, the HW tank acts as a reservoir of warm water which speeds up the time it takes for the fan units to reach operating temperature.

I'll have to look at the Webasto TSL17. I've been thinking of getting rid of my heat pump and putting in a diesel heater. But I'm not sure what then to do for AC..... My current heat pump will both heat and cool. I have forced air throughout the boat which is a nice benefit. AC is another high energy system that I haven't come fully to grips with yet... I did the same thing with the wiring on my heat pump. I don't recall exactly, but I think it's about 1800 watts so also very close to max capacity on my inverter... in the tropics, there are times when it's really nice to have a bit of AC available...

Does your system require you to select what heat source is being used to generate hot water? I'd love to see a circuit/plumbing diagram of your setup. You have to have an external vent on that Webasto, no? Do you go through your coach roof?

dj

 

[Tally Ho]

I have a 1993 Cat 30 MKII and it has a heat exchanger that uses the engine cooling/exhaust water to heat the fresh water. While this was a decent enough idea in 1993, between camping and boating, there are way better options today. Has anyone swapped one of these out for something that doesn't require me to run my engine for twenty minutes to have hot water to shower with? I plan to retire to the boat in the spring and would like to update it while it is laid up for the winter.

Most have an electric element in addition to the engine coolant system. So, if you are living aboard with shore power, you just use the electric element.

Greg

 

[dlochner]

Does your system require you to select what heat source is being used to generate hot water? I'd love to see a circuit/plumbing diagram of your setup. You have to have an external vent on that Webasto, no? Do you go through your coach roof?

Dave, attached is a simplified drawing of the heating system. The Summer Valve is a by pass valve so heating fluid does not go to the fans. I didn't install one because I was running out of space and I decided that warming the nooks and crannies where the heating loop went wasn't a big deal and I could shut off the fans.

I purchased most of the system from Sure Marine in Seattle. They have a proprietary SureWire panel that makes the electrical side of the system very easy to install and allows for the flexibility that I wanted. The presale and installation support was good. Post installation support was not that strong until the President of the company got involved and then it was excellent. The problem I had was a mistake I made, 5/16" has a a larger ID than 5/16" tubing. Learn something new every day. And a faulty SureWire panel. The whole support process was complicated by us cruising in Canada and shipping delays.

We spent a lot of time motoring and the system worked great. Our Raritan HW tank is well insulated and water will stay hot for at least a day. While motoring we'd run the heater off engine heat and get the cabin really warm, up into the 70s. By morning the temp would be in the low 60s which was tolerable and helped to get us moving.

There are Chinese knock offs that are much less expensive than the Webasto, however, you're pretty much on your own for installation support and instruction. That support and the SureWire panel was worth the extra money. By the time I was done I had run about 300' of wire. Simpler systems are possible, but not as flexible or cool.

Be glad to answer any questions.