3M 5200

PeteT

.
May 2, 2023
34
Catalina 30 Channel Islands, CA (Oxnard)
I was told that 3M 5200 will no longer be accepted in California as of 2025. Do you know all this to be true? CA is not the best for decisions... but this is crazy with all the boating community here. I cannot confirm this, so if someone knows this to be true... it would be great to know.
 

PeteT

.
May 2, 2023
34
Catalina 30 Channel Islands, CA (Oxnard)
I use it when I need a secure never remove solution. It can be removed, but for certain where a longer than permanent adhesive is wanted. 4200 on everything else... but still not sure why it is not coming to CA. It's bonding is good in some situations.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,963
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I use it when I need a secure never remove solution.
There is nothing on a boat that is a never remove solution.

As for the 5200 ban, a google search turns up nothing but some unsubstantiated BS. To confirm the absence of a ban, I checked with West Marine, but making a store in San Diego "My Store" and found I could pick up over 100 tubes of 5200 today at the store.
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,151
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
There is nothing on a boat that is a never remove solution.
Someone recently told me it was great for something that would never be removed...
when there were REPLACING "bonded on" portlights.

Err...

I just had a huge hassle removing a teak beam for a traveller... Now I have to fix some glass. It was bolted in with backing plates.. (so far so good).. And glued down...:facepalm:

I almost wish it was banned.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
21,728
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
It is a tool. No love or hate here. It is tenacious. It is better to fix fiberglass than missing wood.

I am not happy about someone taking my tools.
 
Apr 8, 2010
2,007
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
We did a full re-fit of our '88 boat in '21. The factory had pretty much used 5200 everywhere. I did have to use thin wedges and heat to remove a lot of deck fittings. There were a handful of places where a little bit of gel coat came up with the part, and that was before I started using a heat gun to soften it.
I found that I had almost zero water seepage around ports and tracks. However, there was evidence in several places where moisture was slowly working its way under parts and was very close to getting inside and causing trouble. I would say, that in round numbers, about 30 years is the absolute limit for even the best sealant to do its job. For instance, EY had countersunk all the bolt holes for the tracks to allow more sealant to bond and adhere. This increased their labor cost, but was appreciated a lot by us subsequent owners... :)
So, yes, the best sealants are going to be difficult to remove. They have to be to do their job. The duty of a "sealant" is to adhere stuff as well as seal it.

Aside: It also occurs to me to wonder what happened to all the boats that followed the West Systems "hardware bonding" procedure, promoted back in the 80's, to really fasten/secure heavily-loaded deck gear down. Those big turning blocks would have been bolted and epoxied in place. Wonderful in use, but removal later would be, um .... "challenging".... :)

BTW, having the keel and also our hull-to-deck joint so well adhered is a Really Good Thing.
(Opinions on sale for a penny, Labor Day Special !)
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,963
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
So, yes, the best sealants are going to be difficult to remove. They have to be to do their job. The duty of a "sealant" is to adhere stuff as well as seal it.
The trouble with 5200 is that it is more adhesive than sealant. Hardware mounting is better with something more flexible like 4200. The hardware is attached mechanically, the sealant prevents water from entering and can accommodate expansion and contraction of the hardware with out breaking the seal.
 
Apr 25, 2024
88
Fuji 32 Bellingham
They've been talking about this "ban" for years. I don't know the reality of it, but I would say that, if you could buy it last year, you will probably be able to buy it next year. However, I was curious, so I went to 3M's 5200 product page. They say (https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/p/d/b40066983/) very clearly "For industrial/occupational use only. Not for consumer sale or use." Yet, I just (2 days ago) bought some on Amazon. I don't live in CA.

As for whether it is good or bad to use ... that depends.

I used it to construct some wood panels that have joints that need to flex but that DEFINITELY need to never come apart. I would never use it to glue anything to my boat. But, I don't use adhesives anywhere on my boat (with a couple of exceptions). I learned a long time ago that butyl tape works better, lasts longer without leaking, can flex to failure and still reseal, and is trivial to remove, replace, and rebed. Some folks will say that it has its limitations (which it does) but I have removed deck fittings that were bedded decades ago with butyl tape, and they were still supple/sticky and were not leaking.
 
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Likes: LloydB
Sep 25, 2008
7,205
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Who said anything about taking someone's tools?
Prohibiting sale of 5200 is the essence of “taking away” a tool.

Whether or not people agree on its utility wasn’t the question here and generalities implying it’s never a good tool is, like all generalities, wrong.

It seems more a rumor rather than fact that Kalifornia is planning to ban it, however, it’s a moot point given this product is available nationally. And as it has no unique or serious environmental impact, banning it would appear to be based on some mystery rationalization.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,963
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Prohibiting sale of 5200 is the essence of “taking away” a tool.

Whether or not people agree on its utility wasn’t the question here and generalities implying it’s never a good tool is, like all generalities, wrong.

It seems more a rumor rather than fact that Kalifornia is planning to ban it, however, it’s a moot point given this product is available nationally. And as it has no unique or serious environmental impact, banning it would appear to be based on some mystery rationalization.
I raised the issue because there is too much disinformation, misinformation, and plain old rumor mongering on the internet, we all know this. And yes, removing a useful and safe product might be considered taking away a tool. However, in the context of this discussion the comment did nothing to dismiss the rumor and could be construed as supporting and spreading the unfounded rumor. A couple of minutes spent on an internet search and checking on the retail availability of 5200 in California, pretty clearly showed that 5200 is available in CA and there were no reputable news sources that indicated it would be banned.

A post like "being unhappy with someone taking away my tools" is simply an unfounded call for action and raises questions about the author's intention.
 

PeteT

.
May 2, 2023
34
Catalina 30 Channel Islands, CA (Oxnard)
I used the 5200 on a backsplash in the galley. A friend leaned on it and ripped it right off the counter. So I used an epoxy filler to secure the weak parts of the counter so the screws would take a bite. I then added a thin line of 5200 on the backsplash to adhere to the counter and filled the screw holes with 4200 before replacing the screws... Solid as a rock now. Hmmm.. maybe "rock" is a poor metaphor on a boat :)

Pete
Mystic Rose
'80, Catalina 30 - #1691
 
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Likes: jssailem

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,849
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
Oh no. Not this again! (5200 haters)

  • Epoxy is permanent too.
  • No on mentioned some of the very effective de-bonding agents. Try this guys, cuts the work 90%. Really. Solvents (not effective) and prying (damaging and a PITA) are not the solution, these are.
Re-Mov for polyurethane

DeBond Marine formula for silicone
I don't think this particular discussion has anything to do with "hate", but more likely understanding the products on the market and their proper use. As I said, in my experience, it has almost exclusively been used incorrectly, whenever it has been used on a boat. From filling voids around portholes and hawseholes on a recent 80' build, to filling in around miscut frames and stringers when they built the Spirit of South Carolina, in Charleston, and numerous other cases.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,963
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I don't think this particular discussion has anything to do with "hate", but more likely understanding the products on the market and their proper use. As I said, in my experience, it has almost exclusively been used incorrectly, whenever it has been used on a boat. From filling voids around portholes and hawseholes on a recent 80' build, to filling in around miscut frames and stringers when they built the Spirit of South Carolina, in Charleston, and numerous other cases.
It's the same story with different players, use the right tool and the right products for the job at hand. On a job that needs a good sealant use a good sealant like 4200. On a job that needs a good adhesive and sealant use 5200. At least this "hater" hates to see 5200 used indiscriminately. I'm not sure what thinking drives this especially when the fitting is going to be mechanically secured with nuts and bolts, 4200 or butyl sealant would be perfectly acceptable and much easier to deal with when it was time to remove or service the fitting.
 
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Likes: JamesG161
Dec 28, 2015
1,876
Laser, Hunter H30 Cherubini Tacoma
There is nothing on a boat that is a never remove solution.
This is simply not true. If it was then get rid of all your epoxy and polyester resin. I agree that it should have a very limited application but it I’d much rather bond two thin objects together than use fasteners when the expectation is that it is permanent..
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,963
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
This is simply not true. If it was then get rid of all your epoxy and polyester resin. I agree that it should have a very limited application but it I’d much rather bond two thin objects together than use fasteners when the expectation is that it is permanent..
@MikeHoncho I tried to think of something that is common on boats where 2 things on a boat that might be joined and never taken apart. I couldn't think of anything. The closest I came was a hull deck joint that was glassed over at the factory, but those are rare boats. Even keels have to be dropped from time to time, although this is one application that 5200 is well suited. There may be one-off repairs to broken parts, even there epoxy or polyester resin may be a better choice.

Not to be argumentative, I'd be interested in other's thoughts about a "never remove" installation or repair where 5200 would be the best choice.
 
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Likes: Leeward Rail
Jan 19, 2010
1,210
Catalina 34 Casco Bay
it would seem that California has banned more an more things over the years. Along with that goes a sticker with a warning. Interestingly enough Lithium batteries of all sizes, especially those in EV somehow escape the scrutiny of California...Hmmmm guess the Lithium issue would interfere with another agenda....
 
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