Reefing: Procedural Questions

[kappykaplan]

I find it easier to shake out a reef than take one, and it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[duck21]

@Ward H -- Thank you for this outline -- this is very helpful. I don't have a block at the at the clew, just a bowline. I have a piece of dynema with rings that pass through the sail at the reef points on the luff. I have a block and tackle setup next to the mast, with the top block attached to the ring on the sail and the bottom block attached to the mast base plate, probably adding friction but giving me some mechanical advantage to pull the sail into the reef. The final pass goes from the top block down to a turning block at the base of the mast then leads back to the cockpit. The 376 has a big main sail (traditional Hunter B&R rig so extra roach plus a tall mast) so the extra turns do help with getting things pulled down. I have two reefing points, each is setup identically. I should note that this setup was all present at the time that I bought the boat, I have not made any modifications.

I was attempting to bring the reef point all the way down to the boom, with minimal success. When I practice in lighter winds I'll see if placing the reefed tack/clew points higher helps with sail shape.

The information about the clewlines [EDIT: buntlines? Nettles?] (thanks to EVERYONE for that input) is also helpful. I was thinking of those lines as there to help with sail shape. It sounds like I was wrong, I'm glad I didn't try that and rip up my sail. With that info, I suppose my usage will depend on how long my sailing day looks and how variable the winds are in the islands.

I'm still going to have to figure out the Dutchman side of this. As @Scott T-Bird noted the ideal world is to release the topping lift and let the sail (or a rigid vang) take the weight. With a soft vang and the foot of the sail shortened while reefed I'm really not sure if it can support the boom. The challenge is keeping the boom above the bimini. The boom on this boat is quite heavy -- opposite of Scott I ran my topping lift back to the cockpit as I struggled to manually raise the boom when hand pulling at the mast. There is more friction, but in the cockpit I can throw the topping lift on a winch in order to find the right height.

In my experimentation I'll have to try letting the topping lift out slowly and see what happens.

Unfortunately I'm not going to be back to the boat for a few weeks, but I'll report back when I get a chance to shake things out!

Doug

@duck21
As others have mentioned, tying the buntlines to the boom is not recommended as it is too easy to get them tight enough to rip the cringles out of the sail. On my sails, both old/soft and newer stiff, never needed the reefed cloth to be tied up. It lays against the side of the boom and doesn't luff.
As for a single line system, here is what I've done. @Hayden Watson taught me this set up.
At the tack reef point and clew reef point I installed Harken Air Blocks which are very light. I used soft shackles to attach them to rings on the other side of the cringle.
I start the reef line with a bowline at the aft end of the boom positioned so the reef line goes straight up to the block at the clew reef point and back to the end of the boom, into the boom to the mast. It exits at the mast goes up to the tack reef point, through the block and back down to a block at the base of the mast, then back to the cockpit. I installed BB sheaves in the boom ends. This ensures the least possible friction.

My procedure, when I'm ready to reef, is to let out the main sheet. I then lower the main halyard to a pre marked point on the halyard for reefing. That mark puts the tack reef point about 8-10" above the boom.
I then pull in the reef line to a pre mark on that line. The clew end of the line pulls the clew reef point down to within 8-10" of the boom AND the angle back to the boom end applies outhaul tension to the clew reef point. The reef line pulls the reef tack point down to 8-10" of the boom.

I then sheet in the main. I keep the boat sailing under the Genoa while putting in the reef.

Keeping the tack points 8-10" above the boom keeps the reef line from rubbing agains the sail which would cause friction. Using all BB blocks also helps to reduce friction so the line tension is equal enough to tack and clew to provide decent sail shape.

I know that using separate reef lines for tack and clew allows better trimming of the sail but I'm very happy with my single line system.

Edit: I can put in and shake out a reef in under a minute while never leaving the cockpit.

 

[jviss]

As others have mentioned, tying the buntlines to the boom is not recommended as it is too easy to get them tight enough to rip the cringles out of the sail.

Let me ask you a question then. If they are such a bad idea, why have they been used for hundreds of years, if not thousands?

Again, they are not buntlines, they are nettles. And, they protect and preserve the sail by preventing it from wear by flogging.

"Clewlines and buntlines are lines used to handle the sails of a square rigged ship." (Via wikipedia.)

Buntlines are used to haul up the middle of a square sail when furling.

 

[duck21]

Indeed, this past weekend I deployed my sails directly into the reef.

However, we had already motored out of the anchorage and into the (much windier) channel before deploying the sail (there was interest in motoring over to another island to go ashore, so we started under motor power. At some point minds were changed and we decided to head back for home, at which point I put up the main at the second reef point).

However, it being an upwind sail, I was not happy with sail shape and was considering going forward to tie off the buntlines -- but was uncomfortable going up to to do so in the chop/wind, which then lead to the original set of questions. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't (lesson: clewlines [EDIT: buntlines? Nettles?] are for sail gathering, not for strengthening the reefed foot). That said, I'm glad this has lead to an interesting thread.

Doug

I reef to the forecast, often before weighing anchor. I find it easier to shake out a reef than take one, and it's better to be safe than sorry. Besides, my boat sails faster with less heel.

 

[duck21]

I think the distinction that's perhaps getting muddled is that of the function -- some folks (definitely me, perhaps others who have damaged their sail) assumed those lines were there to create an artificial foot in order to preserve sail shape in a reef. However, based on others experience (damaged sails) and info from this thread I've learned that this the wrong use and trying to use the nettles [new vocab] this way is a bad idea.

The proper use of the nettles to keep the excess sail in place and keeping that sail from experiencing wear and tear is obviously not a bad idea, but is new information to some of us with a little less experience.

Doug

Let me ask you a question then. If they are such a bad idea, why have they been used for hundreds of years, if not thousands?

Again, they are not buntlines, they are nettles. And, they protect and preserve the sail by preventing it from wear by flogging.

"Clewlines and buntlines are lines used to handle the sails of a square rigged ship." (Via wikipedia.)

Buntlines are used to haul up the middle of a square sail when furling.

 

[Hayden Watson]

That's a really simplistic model and does not hold true across environments (nor vessels or sailors). White capping is not a good indicator of wind speed except in fairly predictable environments where the wave period and height as well as fetch are known and consistent. Around here, we get tidal convergences that cause white capping in the complete absence of wind. True, decades of experience have allowed me to get a sense of what the wind is actually doing in the distance, but it has also taught me to wait and see what is going to stick.

Also, wind and waves don't always go together in predictable and consistent ways. In your area, it is fairly consistent. But, in many parts of the world (like my area), conditions are much more capricious. If you reef and shake out or add/remove sail every time you see a change in conditions on the horizon, you will do little else.

The advice to reef early is safe and sound, and that's what the text book says, but my point is that almost no one does this. In fact, I would say that the more experienced a person is, the less likely they are to actually follow their own advice on this. We know that we can handle it if things get a bit interesting, so are less likely to proactively reef, out of concern that conditions might stiffen.

I taught sailing for some time and would advise students to reef early because that is the safe thing to do. But, it most certainly isn't what is actually done, in practice. Not among experienced sailors. We all wait until the decision not to reef is conspicuously the wrong call. Don't believe me? Take a poll. If being honest, 9 out of 10 experienced sailors will admit to consistently waiting too long to make the decision to reef.

Ultimately, knowing whether reefing is the right call is something you only get to find out in retrospect.

Reading the conditions of the waves was the primary means of telling the wind speed for centuries. The disturbances you are talking about at tidal convergence is not wave, that is rips and they look completely different from the wave pattern.

At 66-years-old, I practice the policy of reef early, reef often and have set up my boat accordingly. On a recent solo crossing of Juan d Fuca from Sequim to Fishermans Bay, with forecast wind of 18-25, I started and ended with full sails in about 6-knts. As I approached Dungeness Spit, I put in the first reef at 12-kts. Before I left the protection of the Spit I put in the 2nd and rolled the 140 down to 100% in preparation for the expected acceleration zone off the end of the spit. Once clear of the zone, I shook out the 2nd and rolled out a bit more genoa in a steady 15-kts at 150ºappearant. Given the deep angle, and the wind being less than predicted, I eventually shook out the first reef and went to full 140%.
About 2/3 of the way across, I was hit by a gust that the anemometer recorded at 25 while I was down below fixing lunch. It overpowered Auto and Papillon rounded up heavily. I know from experience that this type of a round-up on Auto will lead to crossing the eye of the wind due to the fully stalled rudder, so I worked that to my advantage. I climbed up into the cockpit, hit standby and turned to wheel 1/2-turn opposite to the round-up to slow the rate of turn after she crossed the eye of the wind and the rudder reattached. As Papillon continued to round to the eye of the wind, I hauled in the headsail furler to take up the excess sheet from the deep running angle which left me with about 100% jib and sheeted for close haul. As she passed the wind onto the opposite tack, the rudder regained its hold on the water and due to the presetting of the wheel, tried to tack again which left Papillon hove-to with 100% and full main. I then dropped the haulyard to 1st reef mark and pulled in the 1st reef line to set the first reef. Now reefed to 1st and 100%, I spun the wheel down wind and jibed back to my original course, reset Auto and went back below to finish preparing my lunch. It all took about 2-minutes from when I disengaged Auto to reengagement.

After clearing through Cattle Pass in a spicy 3-kts of current, I shook out the reefs for the reach to Fishermans. All told, I put in and took out the 1st reef twice and the 2nd reef once. Because of the well working single line reefing system I put on Papillon a dozen years ago, this was all down from the cockpit will no drama or stress on me or the boat.

I have taken 1st place in several can races because I reefed on the windward leg and shook it out for the runs while the rest of the fleet was struggling on the windward leg due to being over-canvased.

I have my boat set up for old man sailing so that I can put in 1st and 2nd reef without leaving the cockpit in less than 60-seconds.

 

[Hayden Watson]

I think the distinction that's perhaps getting muddled is that of the function -- some folks (definitely me, perhaps others who have damaged their sail) assumed those lines were there to create an artificial foot in order to preserve sail shape in a reef. However, based on others experience (damaged sails) and info from this thread I've learned that this the wrong use and trying to use the nettles [new vocab] this way is a bad idea.

The proper use of the nettles to keep the excess sail in place and keeping that sail from experiencing wear and tear is obviously not a bad idea, but is new information to some of us with a little less experience.

Doug

Being one who has suffered for years from an undersized main caused by damage done to the main from the reefpoints being tied down, I am firmly in the better off without camp.

For the flap of unwieldly cloth below the reef, I have found it to not be a problem. My EZJax are stored alongside the boom when sailing so I typically have nothing to support that cloth when the 1st or 2nd reef are in. I find that this cloth does not move at all when reef. The bottom edge is stretched tight between the tack and the clue by the outhaul. The top edge is stretched tight between the reef tack and the reef clue by the reefing line. The cloth ends up as a tube with no flapping and is held against the side of the boom. I do the same for the 2nd reef which makes a second tube that is also stretched tight top and bottom and further supported by the roll of the first reef.

FYI, I never tie in a 2nd reef without first tying in the 1st.

Here is a nice day in 18-kts coming off the beach in flat water with the 1st reef and 140%

 

[Hayden Watson]

Here is a Youtube video I made of putting in the 1st reef.
Sorry for the huffing and puffing and how long it took. From fully trimmed main to fully trimmed reef it took 51-seconds. It is ussually quicker than this but with the narration and being tired I was slow. This was the third time I did it because the first two times, the "cameraman" forgot to push the record button!
Also, I should note that in my frustrated state, I had forgot to lock the reef line clutch so the sail is properly trimmed @ 0:53 but is getting a bit loose in the next shot.
single line reef (youtube.com)

 

[Ward H]

Here is a Youtube video I made of putting in the 1st reef.
Sorry for the huffing and puffing and how long it took. From fully trimmed main to fully trimmed reef it took 51-seconds. It is ussually quicker than this but with the narration and being tired I was slow. This was the third time I did it because the first two times, the "cameraman" forgot to push the record button!
Also, I should note that in my frustrated state, I had forgot to lock the reef line clutch so the sail is properly trimmed @ 0:53 but is getting a bit loose in the next shot.
single line reef (youtube.com)

Very helpful video!

 

[Stu Jackson]

For the flap of unwieldly cloth below the reef, I have found it to not be a problem.

Same here, and my clew is tight because I have double line reefing.