Reefing: Procedural Questions

[duck21]

Hi all,

While we get out and sail pretty regularly, the Admiral (and our dogs) sometimes get a little nervous around higher winds, so we tend to be more fair weather and/or choose to motor. Not that we CAN'T operate the boat should bad weather come up, we just typically choose not to (given that we mostly cruise in a fairly secluded set of islands within 30 miles of our main port choosing to motor in rougher weather isn't a hard choice). This is a long way of saying, while I'm practiced at reefing, we don't actually sail under reef very often.

We have a single line reefing system -- a set of blocks at the mast that hauls the sail down with the line running through the boom that pulls the leech down and tensions to form the foot. Pretty straight forward, all doable from the cockpit. We have a Dutchman system, so presumably the excess sail is held in place by the filaments. This is also what leads to my questions:

When reefed do most folks rely on their sail flaking system (Dutchman, Lazy Jacks) to hold the flaked sail in place, or do you typically use sail ties/lines to lash the excess sail to the boom (I'm asking mostly of coastal/island cruisers -- I think tying off the excess sail would always make sense if you're going to be sailing in higher winds for many hours/days at a time while on an extended passage)?

If you do tie off the sail, how do you go about that -- do you try to do so while the sail is under power (which could be tricky, walking on the coach roof in an upwind sail while the boat heels), or do you do this while the sail is luffing (which, in my experience, can be quite violent in a relatively high wind situation)? If the latter, do you just keep the boom centered and the bow pointed into the wind? (I'll note, we do have grommets in our sail, so tying things down IS an option, I'm just not sure how to totally go about it).

Yesterday I ignored a few Admiral/pet protests and we did do some reefed sailing (winds were 15 to 20, gusting to 25). I raised the main with the reef in place, but I did not go on top to tie things off. I considered tying things off, but wasn't comfortable going up top with the sail luffing. I thought about heaving to, but in doing so, with the main sheet fully released, I can't reach the majority of the boom from the deck (so tying off becomes quite difficult). I ended up sailing just relying on the Dutchman, although pointing upwind was difficult as the sail shape wasn't great. Also, one of the Dutchman filament cars popped off the topping lift, so we had a bit of sail flopping around (this may have been more of a filament tensioning issue, though, not exclusively because we were reefed).

The sailing was fine, although eventually I was convinced to put the sail away and we had a nice (mostly up wind) motor back to port.

Curious as to others thoughts/procedures.

Thanks!
Doug

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Dutchman lines aren’t designed to and won’t hold a sail in a blow regardless of tension. That’s why it’s necessary to tie off. You should be able to safely reach at least one or two sections of the boom without acrobatics depending on the size/shape of your dodger/bimini.

 

[duck21]

That makes sense (and aligns with my experience). I may try tying some "permanent" tie offs on the grommets then practice reefing (and tying) in lighter winds. I wouldn't mind sailing more in heavier winds, although I need to get the crew accustomed bit by bit.

 

[kappykaplan]

I let my sailpack contain the reefed main. If I knew I'd be maintaining the reef for an extended period, I'd consider putting a sailtie or two through the grommets in the main. If it's really blowing stink, I'd have no problem with motoring into the wind to add the sailties.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I have the same set-up as you do with single-line reefing and a dutchman system. Don's right that a dutchman system isn't intended to take the strain that may result from reefing; however, I don't think the dutchman needs to or should take any strain even when you don't tie off. I always slack my dutchman before raising the main anyway. I only tension it again when readying to drop the main fully. BTW, I've never had to replace the filaments yet in 4 seasons going on 5.

I never tie off the loose folds and don't have grommets anyway. That said, I only have a single reef and don't have double reef points. I reef frequently and have found that the single reefing system is more difficult to get the sail shape done well. My previous boat had lines for the leech only and ram's horns for the tack. I found that system better for sail shape. But we have to deal with what we have. I find that the shape improves when I don't try to draw the tack as close as possible to the boom. The clew never gets quite close enough and the shape is distorted if you try to draw the tack down too tightly. @Ward H taught me this idiosyncrasy. I try to draw it down just snug enough to the point where the clew can't get any tighter and the tack matches the height of the clew.

I'll suggest that you do not have to bother tying off the folds. They hang relatively undisturbed when you are on a single-reef. I found the double reefed sail could use some tidying up on my previous boat, but not even necessary when sailing shorter time periods. It sounds like you want to do more sailing under single reef point but you aren't going to sail when needing the double reef. I would slack the dutchman and not worry about tying off the sail. When I mean slack, I'm not talking about slacking to the point that the filaments are flopping around (that just allows chaffing). Just slack enough to relieve the tension so the filaments can move with the sail without any resistance.

You are right ... there is no easy way to tie off the loose sail material in rough conditions. I think there is no reason why you should think that you have to.

 

[JoeWhite]

Reefing is performed before the wind picks up. Learning the weather is the key. I do not tie the excess sail as the sail may become torn. Ask me how I know. As noted above the Dutchman reefing lines will not keep the sail from falling off the boom. Check the cars, they should not fall off the topping line. The line should be 1/4" thick.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Reefing is performed before the wind picks up.

in an ideal world.
I suspect we’ve all be surprised by conditions we didn’t/couldnt anticipate and i infer that prompted the OP to solicit opinions.

 

[shemandr]

I don't think you are supposed to tie the buntlines around the boom - I don't know why. On my Mark 25, which had a Dutchman system and a foot that was in the boom channel. I did not tie the buntlines because they would have to go around the boom. I would let the first reef excess sail hang.
I had trouble setting up single line reefing on my Ranger. I think getting the tension right at the clew and tack is a challenge. I think that's because the distance the clew reef line has to come in is different than the distance the tack reef line has to come down That was a loose footed main and I did tie the lines I could reach - sometime on the cabin top. It's not that scary because you go up on the high side and would fall into the sail if you lost footing.
Regarding your Admiral/Pet problem, I would go out in mild weather with the reef tied in - with good sail shape. Then shake it out if necessary. But if a bit more wind comes up you will find that sailing with a reef makes a much calmer situation which both Admiral and Pet will appreciate. The heel will be less, the helm more balanced and the sail trim easier. In short - more fun.

 

[duck21]

Indeed, the islands we sail in/around often have a wind tunnel effect -- but it's also not necessarily consistent. Our reefing is usually less "incoming weather" and more "rounded the point and oh my, wind switched to the East and jumped up by 10 kts."

Although, with yesterday's experience we motored out of our anchorage and into the channel, at which point I decided to try sailing. I deployed the sail with the reef from the beginning, but by then was already in the wind and the chop. I decided not to exit the cockpit to tie things down, but that got me thinking as to how best to proceed, hence this thread.

BTW, thanks to everyone for the insights and comments!

Doug

in an ideal world.
I suspect we’ve all be surprised by conditions we didn’t/couldnt anticipate and i infer that prompted the OP to solicit opinions.

 

[duck21]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for this insight -- beyond the flopping sail and car that came off (again, maybe not specifically a reefing problem -- more on that later) I was also struggling with sail shape, which is also what got me thinking about tying off. I'm not sure on your setup, but I don't have a rigid vang. I've run the topping lift back to the cockpit, and I do loosen tension when my full main is up, but I don't think I can do that reefed -- I'm pretty sure that the reefing line will not hold the boom up (along those lines, when using full main I have to raise the sail THEN release tension on the topping lift). I was definitely trying to get better shape by bringing the clew down closer to the boom. In lighter air I'll experiment with this and see if can get things to play a little more efficiently. It feels like over all I just need to spend some more time experimenting with this use of the system in a more controlled environment.

Re: the filament car

Last season I moved the stopper for the bottom filament car (furthest from the mast). I think I may have moved it too far and was putting too much tension on that particular line. The topping lift that came with this system is actually a vinyl wrapped stainless steel cable (which attaches to the topping lift line that runs through the mast and back to the cockpit). The car pulled out of the topping lift twice on this last sailing weekend. I think that I had too much tension on it at the stopper when in heavier winds. I guess that speaks to the filament strength, although I'm definitely happy the filament didn't break and/or the car didn't break. I'm not exactly sure how it squeezed its way out, but this morning I lowered the stopper AND wrapped the car in tape in hopes so as to not have this problem again.

Doug

I have the same set-up as you do with single-line reefing and a dutchman system. Don's right that a dutchman system isn't intended to take the strain that may result from reefing; however, I don't think the dutchman needs to or should take any strain even when you don't tie off. I always slack my dutchman before raising the main anyway. I only tension it again when readying to drop the main fully. BTW, I've never had to replace the filaments yet in 4 seasons going on 5.

I never tie off the loose folds and don't have grommets anyway. That said, I only have a single reef and don't have double reef points. I reef frequently and have found that the single reefing system is more difficult to get the sail shape done well. My previous boat had lines for the leech only and ram's horns for the tack. I found that system better for sail shape. But we have to deal with what we have. I find that the shape improves when I don't try to draw the tack as close as possible to the boom. The clew never gets quite close enough and the shape is distorted if you try to draw the tack down too tightly. @Ward H taught me this idiosyncrasy. I try to draw it down just snug enough to the point where the clew can't get any tighter and the tack matches the height of the clew.

I'll suggest that you do not have to bother tying off the folds. They hang relatively undisturbed when you are on a single-reef. I found the double reefed sail could use some tidying up on my previous boat, but not even necessary when sailing shorter time periods. It sounds like you want to do more sailing under single reef point but you aren't going to sail when needing the double reef. I would slack the dutchman and not worry about tying off the sail. When I mean slack, I'm not talking about slacking to the point that the filaments are flopping around (that just allows chaffing). Just slack enough to relieve the tension so the filaments can move with the sail without any resistance.

You are right ... there is no easy way to tie off the loose sail material in rough conditions. I think there is no reason why you should think that you have to.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Hi Doug,

I do have a Garhauer rigid vang and it would seem to make a difference. In your case, I assume that you slack the topping lift after you raise the main. I think that if you just leave it at that position (where the topping lift is tied off) when you drop the main for reefing, the boom won't drop into the cockpit. Once you reef the main, the boom will be supported by the leech anyway and the topping lift should be slack again. I think that without a rigid vang, your procedure may be a little different but the end result should not be too different. You still want the topping lift to be slacked regardless of the tension on the leech from the main sheet and/or vang sheet.

A rigid vang would be a good addition to your boat!

The topping lift line on my dutchman system, which the cars are attached to is just another double braid line with eye splices / thimbles at both ends. To be sure, I haven't even inspected anything on this system in 4+ years. When I take the main down for the winter, I just roll it all up in the main for storage.

The previous owner explained that he spent a lot of time setting the dutchman up just right and I've had no reason to argue otherwise. The only issue I had is that the topping lift line to the cockpit was way longer than it needed to be and I didn't want all that excess line in the cockpit anyway. Since it was very old looking and a bit thick, I bought some new, thinner line and shortened the length. I cleat it off at the mast now because I don't want the line in the cockpit. I go forward to the mast at the beginning and end of every sail, so there seems to be no reason to need a topping lift running back to the cockpit.

 

[capta]

When sails had loops, hoops, or cars in tracks to attach them to booms, the buntlines were not tied around the boom. They were tied around the bolt rope on the foot of the sail only. Those little lines are only put there to "neaten" things up; they have no practical value.
As the sails began running the bolt rope in a slotted boom, the buntlines had to go around the boom, but were not intended to be pulled tight. Again, they are there only to make the sail look neater, not as a part of the reefing process.