Dan and Kika on Sailing Uma just posted a long video from the METS trade show. This is the largest marine industry trade show for the industry. The interview somewhere around 40 vendors who are selling electric propulsion. The video focuses on those companies serving the recreational sector. The field has really exploded in recent years.
Electric Motors
- Thread starter dlochner
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Yes, and it still is sort of, it is more of a lifestyle blog at the moment. They were one of the early adopters of electric power and did a DIY home-brew electric power years ago. At the moment they are doing a "Sail Life" style refit of their Pearson 36, the entire interior has been gutted and they are rebuilding it from the hull up. They are also exploring the off grid RV life while in Sardinia for the refit.
I'll put my name on the list for one when the energy in 100 lbs of batteries = the energy from 100 lbs of diesel. Until then, electric sailboats are the play toys of the Wednesday night racers down at the yacht club. Any cruiser who has had to run the diesel for a day knows we're not there yet with battery technology.
Interestingly enough, Dan and Kika have always talked about how much more they depend upon sailing because generation of electricity is a big issue. They can't count on motoring long distances so they have to sail when there is wind, often in conditions when most other cruisers would be sitting in port avoiding foul weather. Dependency on an electric auxiliary has actually enhanced their sailing abilities.
I thought it was funny while Kika was smirking as the guy from EP Tech was telling her that regeneration is over-hyped because nobody really needs it while it is rare that they are actually doing any long-distance sailing. I wonder if he knew how much sailing Kika and Dan have actually done in the past decade with electric auxiliary. Clearly, he hadn't been following their experiences!
On my first take, though, I didn't really pick up that much information, but I think I will need to view it a few more times because they did touch on some really interesting topics and there is probably more info than I absorbed at first.
I, like a few others here, am not a fan .. I do acknowledge that there is a market where electric drive makes sense but I am not part of that market. The primary problem is the limited range and that is mostly a function of the comparatively large amount of power needed to drive a boat.. folks think that because it works in cars, it should work in boats; the problem is that once a car accelerates to speed, it takes a relatively small amount of power to keep it moving compared to a boat hull in water at a usable speed. The market is starting to show that in a few ways; airplanes are similar to boats in the way they use power and there will be small planes that will be used as trainers on very short flights.. it is starting to be obvious that electrics now cannot replace a dually pickup pulling a trailer .. I've thought that electric power will work as we use gasoline today when fuel cells (hydrogen, or better propane) are generating the electricity and the fuel can be replenished quickly as gasoline or diesel is today..
I think his opinion is probably based on experiences like Jimmy Cornell’s electric circumnavigation failure. He had two of the Ocean Volts on his catamaran and the regen performance was pretty bad. It seems to me once you leave the flat water of the test environment, the rapid changes in speed, pitch, and yaw make efficient hydro generation a tough problem to solve. Especially when you are trying to use the same propeller for propulsion. Maybe the servo prop needs individually controlled blades so each one can optimize its own angle of attack. Similar to fly-by-wire control systems.
Electric Shock - Cornell Sailing Publications
My decision to abandon the Elcano Challenge has taken by surprise many of those who have been following my voyage, and I want to apologise to all of you for the disappointment this may ...Read more
That's a good reference to describe the deficiencies. However, there are significant differences between Cornell's experience and Uma's experience. Most glaringly, Cornell describes a great deal more luxury to support compared to the spartan conditions under which Uma lived for almost an entire decade utilizing electric auxiliary. Cornell didn't really describe in this article how much motoring they did (perhaps he did in a more detailed writing). Uma basically defined their experience by stating that they simply have to travel exclusively by sail and traveling by motor was simply not feasible. It sounds like Cornell described autopilot as an electical consumption, whereas Uma doesn't consume electicity for autopiloting. Basically, Uma's traveling consumption was probably still far less than Cornell's "spartan" consumption.I think his opinion is probably based on experiences like Jimmy Cornell’s electric circumnavigation failure. He had two of the Ocean Volts on his catamaran and the regen performance was pretty bad. It seems to me once you leave the flat water of the test environment, the rapid changes in speed, pitch, and yaw make efficient hydro generation a tough problem to solve. Especially when you are trying to use the same propeller for propulsion. Maybe the servo prop needs individually controlled blades so each one can optimize its own angle of attack. Similar to fly-by-wire control systems.
Electric Shock - Cornell Sailing Publications
My decision to abandon the Elcano Challenge has taken by surprise many of those who have been following my voyage, and I want to apologise to all of you for the disappointment this may ...Read morecornellsailing.com
Keep in mind that the great majority of Uma's travels occurred before they even had regeneration or a servoprop. Their consumption behavior was baked in long before they had regeneration. They obtained regeneration while in the Arctic and their ability to charge the batteries was proven out during long sailing passages, even with low angles from solar (but, I suppose with longer summertime hours).
And most distinctly, Cornell seemed to intend to make an uninterrupted circumnavigation, off the grid the entire way. Dan and Kika quite deliberately have always said that their destinations include frequent stops where marinas are plentiful for shore power re-charging. Even in the Norwegian Arctic, they noted that marinas with shore power were numerous enough to support their travels.
Cornell indicated that passages across the Atlantic are certainly feasible to be supported by regeneration. Uma's experience proved that just as readily, even without regeneration.
Much respect for what Cornell attempted. I think the concept was kind of flawed from the beginning. He was trying to replicate a Magellan's circumnavigation with using any fossil fuels, yet Megellan didn't use any fossil fuels 500 years ago. Since then there have been also countless circumnavs without burning any fossil fuels. Obviously they could have done it if they wanted to, maybe just without as many hot showers as they would have liked.
At the speeds an Outremer is capable of sailing at they could have had significant regen even with a fixed prop and no software trying to optimize it. Oceanvolt is great but I fear they often let perfect be the enemy of good.
I think this is the heart of it. I've owned electric cars since 2012 when the Nissan Leaf was about the only real game in town. I really thought about my use case before I bought (commuting back and forth to work and local errands), and the car mostly fit that profile nicely. The fuel and maintenance savings were substantial, and being able to charge at home meant I didn't even need to worry about charging infrastructure. But when both my job location changed and the battery degraded that vehicle no longer fit my use case, so I sold it and bought one that did.
Electric sailboats are definitely not right for many - maybe most - use cases (not for me). But where electrification is supported by the use case it is a good solution with a lot of great benefits.
Edit: I already looked at my dinghy use, and realized it made tremendous sense to use an electric outboard instead of a gas one. My distances are short, sea state is nil, and really needed something easy to put on and take off a dinghy that had to be towed if not on deck. I'm also sick and tired of maintaining a cranky (pun intended) gas outboard that I also have to carry a different fuel for. My wife cannot lift the gas outboard on and off the dinghy, I don't want to install a lift on my stern, it's loud, etc., etc. Electric makes perfect sense under those circumstances. And it's about an even trade if I sell the gas outboard (once I fix the latest issue) and buy a used Torqueedo (already done).
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I've been battling this decision for quite some time ... the problem I have with the Torqueedo or E Propulsion is the cost. They are more than twice the price of a gas-powered outboard. But the trade-offs are very clear and I can see the benefit to electric. But what about electric trolling motors? They are sooooo much cheaper than the Torqueedo of E Propulsion, yet nobody ever mentions a trolling motor as an option. What gives? Why not buy a Minn Kota instead of the high-priced options?
The Torqeedo (now owned by Yamaha) and ePropulsion have higher thrusts and use Li batteries with longer range and quicker recharging. Trolling motors were designed for short distances to move a bass boat around a bunch of Lilly pads, a much different use than an electric motor for a dinghy or small sailboat.
Depends on how much power you need. Smaller sailboats get along fine with trolling motors. The Merc, Torqueedo, and Epropulsion Spirit/Evo are the approximate equal of a 3hp gas outboard. The Minn Kotas have lower power ratings. The 3 big names all come with 750-1275 watt-hour batteries included in the price. A second battery is $1100+, so the battery is at least 1/3 of the cost. Minn Kotas and other trolling motors expect you to furnish your own batteries and chargers.
The Spirit is really the minimum size outboard I would use on my 19ft Mariner - I can push through 4 knots of tidal current, or 20 kts of head wind, but I won't be making 4.5 kts over the ground even at full power. But at least I can make progress.
When I bought my Spirit Summer 2023, the cost was $2600 (Torqueedo was $3000 and Merc was $3500). Going prices for a 5hp brand name long shaft outboard with a separate gas tank was $1750+ at Cumberland Sports - the lowest priced reputable Internet dealer I could find. So difference is/was $850, or roughly 1/3 more.
With a gas outboard, I had "will it start?" anxiety. With the Spirit, I had range anxiety. For the gas outboard, starting anxiety gets relieved when the motor starts first or second pull, EVERY time. My 5hp Honda would not do that. With the Spirit, range anxiety was relieved by making runs at different power levels, and recording GPS speeds. I quickly determined I had 12+ dependable nautical miles range at 4 knots (hull speed is 4.7 knots, when I'm dragging a good sized wake). I simply plan around that range. I will likely invest in a second battery to double the range (24nm is more than I plan for a day) when I start cruising. The Spirit also can run at low power on or recharge from a 100AH 12V LiFePO battery, and run normally on a 48V LiFePO battery.
Fred W
Stuart Mariner 19 #4133 Sweet P
Yeopim Creek, Albemarle Sound
@pgandw , I could easily justify the cost of a Spirit for auxiliary use on a sailboat, if an outboard was needed. My hesitancy is the expense to power a dinghy. I do know that I hesitate to put my dinghy to very much use simply because it is not powered, except by some flimsy oars! If I want to put it to some greater use, I will have to put a motor on it!
I choked on the cost of switching from the Honda to the Spirit. A typical used Mariner in usable condition sells today for about $3K. Putting $2600 into a motor for a $3000 sailboat just didn't make sense.
It was DW who got me to jump, even though she didn't intend it that way. A year after owning the boat, it was hardly being used because I couldn't depend on being able to start the motor. I couldn't get friends to sail with me because I would have to cancel the trip when I couldn't get the motor started to back off the boat lift. And I was getting tired of sculling back to the lift when the motor wouldn't start. So I just didn't go sailing often.
DW said I needed to sell the sailboat NOW since I wasn't using it. I wasn't ready to give up sailing. I was ready to buy a new gas outboard, but wondered if I'd be back in the same questionable starting situation in a year or two. Finally bit the bullet and plunked down for the Spirit - Honda had just been taken to the shop to fix for the 2nd time in 15 months. Retrieved the Honda before they worked on it, and sold it for 60% of what I paid for it. Buyer was fully aware of the motor's history, but was a mechanic.
The Spirit has been everything I hoped it would be and more. I now use the sailboat at the drop of a hat - if it looks like a nice day, I'm gone. Took Sweet P up to a Mariner Rendezvous on Long Island Sound last summer with 18 other Mariners. I was the only electric outboard there, but 2 others have bit the bullet and bought Spirits since after seeing how well mine worked, including bucking the tides going through the bridges on the Niantic River. The gas outboards that were working were a little faster, but far noisier.
There are 2 drawbacks to the Spirit besides cost: 1) the steering lock pin cannot be removed/put in place without removing the battery. 2) the tiller arm does not fold up so I have to turn the motor 90 degrees to tilt it up.
In your case, a trolling motor should be fine. Make up a LiFePO battery box and get a LiFePO charger. None of the electric motors is likely to make your dinghy plane.
Fred W
I found a used Torqueedo for less than half the cost of a new one, and the battery has proven to be in very good shape. I've found several on Facebook Marketplace that were fairly reasonable. Before I found the Torqueedo I bought a used EP Carry, which turned out to be quite a good little electric outboard, though a little less powerful than the Torqueedo. Trying to sell that one now.
I bought an EP Carry two yrs ago. It’s a great motor for the dinghy between the boat and shore and trips around the anchorages. Any longer trips, I have a second battery. With the Honda 2hp, I have to lay it down on the deck and time the waves to lift it off the deck and on to the dinghy. (Dinghy not on Davits) With the EP, it’s a one hand operation anytime. Battery follows. One of the things I like about it is the battery is separate. It won’t win any races but who’s racing? It’s very close to a 2hp engine.