H49/50 battery replacement

[Hayden Watson]

I would like the details on your Hunter 49/50 install of lithium batteries. The price is right, and I need new batteries anyway. I’m looking to replace three 8D batteries and a starting battery. The new Epoch 300ah batteries seem to have the discharge rating to run my thruster And windlass. I’m wondering about the lithium starting battery.

If you have room for 8d's I have been happy with my 460Ah packs from Basen Green. At $1002 each they are hard to beat. They each have a 200A JBD BMS with Bluetooth so you can configure them as you see fit. With all shipping and currency exchange, they came to $1200 ea. My two give me a total of 920Ah but after I did some balancing to them, they each tested at 480Ah. If you installed three of them, you would have a max continuous draw of 600A and a peak surge well over 1200A.

 

[tkwhalen]

I have 3 400amp hour Chins so 1200 Amp hours. Th e Chins were the same size as the old 8Ds I had the in the boat but half the weight. They were basically drop ins. I Couldn't find a way to use up my available battery amperage all summer. Even with the 2 fridges 2 freezers, micro wave, coffee maker, tv all used at anchor over night I had plenty of power. I felt bad for my generator all summer because I never used it (I have solar as well). I also decided to use a lithium start battery in my set up to eliminate the need for a dc to dc charger. I bought the smaller Dakota start battery and it starts my 130hp turbo Yanmar with no problems.

I set the invertor charger up for lithium (my invertor charger is not the original factory model the boat came with a Xantrax freedom 2000 I now have a newer Xantrax Pro Marine 3000) I changed the external regulator (to a Balmar 618 I had an ARS 5) on my alternator to manage the alternator output. I set it to charge lithium but to back off charging if the alternator starts to over heat. Finally I added an alternator isolation/protection circuit (again Balmar) to protect it from and back surge if the batterie's bms shuts the batteries off from charging while the alternator is engaged. The combination of the 3 batteries dividing up the demand they have no problem running my bow thruster, windless, the electric halyard winch (I've been up the mast twice with the lithium's providing all the power). They have blue tooth which allows me to easily check the balance of the cells with in each battery.

The whole set up worked great all summer long.

 

[Georgedoyle]

Did you get the Dakota DL+ 60 ah starting battery? I was it advertised for $599.

 

[tkwhalen]

yes that is the one .. it has 1000 CCA amazing ... it's really small again amazing

 

[Georgedoyle]

So I ordered the three Epoch 300AH house batteries on the recommendation of Mainesail. I also ordered the Dakota 1000 cranking amps starting battery. I spoke with Dale from chargingpros.com. He said I could program my recently purchased ARS-5 to handle the lithium batteries. I’m hoping Dale can provide a cheat sheet for the programming. I'm not sure if I will be able to program my original Xantrex charger for the new batteries, but I'm going to give it a shot this weekend. Any insights would be welcome.

 

[Hayden Watson]

So I ordered the three Epoch 300AH house batteries on the recommendation of Mainesail. I also ordered the Dakota 1000 cranking amps starting battery. I spoke with Dale from chargingpros.com. He said I could program my recently purchased ARS-5 to handle the lithium batteries. I’m hoping Dale can provide a cheat sheet for the programming. I'm not sure if I will be able to program my original Xantrex charger for the new batteries, but I'm going to give it a shot this weekend. Any insights would be welcome.

As long as you can program it or fine one of the standard programs that will have 14.4v max for bulk and absorb and 13.4v max for float, it will work fine. I have a similar capacity at 920Ah and use the custom program setting on my Magnum with absorptoin set at 13.8v and 10hour then float at 13.3. These settings are conservative and cost me 10-20 Ah of total capacity but do not stress the batteries and provide a longer live. I have the passive balancing that comes on at 3.4v per cell so they get balancing in the last of the bulk charge and absorption hour. I am not familiar with the Epoch so you should follow their instructions. My batteries have unlocked Bluetooth so I can set up the balancing to match my charge profile.

 

[Georgedoyle]

Can you manage the balancing via Bluetooth?

 

[Hayden Watson]

Can you manage the balancing via Bluetooth?

On my Basen Green batteries, I can. They have 200A charge/discharge JBD BMS's with an unlocked Bluetooth connection. I can adjust all parameters to suit my ideas of proper. For instance, I set the low voltage disconnect to 3.0v so that I have a reserve after it tripes. That way, if I screw up and forget to charge before it shuts down, I can reset the LVP to 2.7v which will turn back on the discharging and then use the battery to start the generator. If I used the factory default of 2.6v I would not be able to start the generator without starting the main engine to let its alternator put in the needed power to start the generator.

I also set the start balance voltage to 3.4 from 3.5 so that balancing begins at 13.6v rather than 14.0v. I have found that when the voltage goes over 13.6v, the delta voltage begins to show up.

I personally would not buy a battery that did not have an unlocked BMS.

 

[Georgedoyle]

Thanks, I’ll check with the people at Epoch.

 

[Hayden Watson]

Thanks, I’ll check with the people at Epoch.

I looked up the Epoch web page and it appears that they have Bluetooth. I personally think that is very important although there are many people who do not want to know what is going on inside. It looks like they are heated. I considered adding heating to my setup but found that it was not needed for either my boat or my motorhome. On the motorhome, I have the two 460Ah Basen green batteries in a compartment below the floor which is not directly heated. It was originally vented for the FLA batteries that are intended to go there. Before installing my LFP, I closed up the vent holes and found that the temperature has never been lower than 45º when we were in the coach. That included this past March when we drove across Nevada in temperatures from 5º - 10º. When the house is warm, enough heat leaks through the floor to keep the batteries above freezing. Then can get cold when the coach is in storage but with 920Ah, they do not need to charge often so the low temperature protection will just prevent them from being charged until it warms up.

 

[Georgedoyle]

Looks like my original Xantrex Freedom 20 won’t work with the lithium batteries. Now I'm having trouble finding a dual input charger/inverter. I need shore power and generator input. It looks like Xantrex doesn't make an updated model that is compatible with lithium batteries.

 

[marcham]

The Freedom 20 can be custom programmed for lithium batteries. (I'm assuming Xantrex Freedom SW 20 ??)

Disable equalization
Bulk: as per battery manufacturer (probably 14.4 to 14.6V)
Absorption voltage: same as bulk
Float: 13.4V
Charge cycle: 3 stage
Recharge volts: 13.0-13.2 V (this will need some adjustments depending on your batteries....)
Absorb time: 30 mins
Auto charge: enabled
Default batt temp: warm

 

[Georgedoyle]

Just found a Victron Quattro II inverter/charger that might work. $1600. Let me know if you have any thoughts on this.

Quattro-II 2x 120V - Victron Energy

Similar to the MultiPlus-II 2x120V, the Quattro-II 2x120V is a combined inverter and charger specifically designed for standard North American 50A...

www.victronenergy.com

 

[Georgedoyle]

We have the older generation Freedom 20 from 2008. I couldn't see anything in the manual that mentions lithium charging or any advanced programmin.

 

[Hayden Watson]

We have the older generation Freedom 20 from 2008. I couldn't see anything in the manual that mentions lithium charging or any advanced programmin.

From that long ago it will not say anything about LFP because it was not a thing back then. What you need to look at is the bulk, absorb and float voltages of the different battery types that you have available and any means of changing them if they are not suitable. You do not need any equalization or temperature compensation because they are not suitable for LFP. If you Freedom has a temperature probe it should be disconnected because they raise the voltage settings. Can you post the page from your manual that lists the different voltages for the battery types?

 

[marcham]

I'm not sure that generation is adjustable in any shape or fashion.... he would have to pick one of the pre-sets, all of which would be a compromise with LFP...

 

[Hayden Watson]

I'm not sure that generation is adjustable in any shape or fashion.... he would have to pick one of the pre-sets, all of which would be a compromise with LFP...

View attachment 220791

AGM type 3 would work great with the temperature probe disconnected. It defaults to 70º so it will bulk and absorb at 14.3v which is 3.575v per cell. This is safely under the max of 3.65v but close enough to get balancing done. It then floats at 13.3v which is a very nice float level.

 

[Georgedoyle]

According to Epoch, the batteries should bulk charge at 14.6 volts and absorb at 14.2 volts. Would the 14.3 volt setting be high enough? I guess it’s not really critical since almost all of our charging is done with solar. We are on a mooring for most of the year. We spend the summer at a marina, but don't need to plug in because the solar works so well. At times, with the current AGM bank, we need to run the generator while spending a week at Catalina, but we’re hoping to avoid that with the new lithium bank. We mostly want to avoid damaging the batteries with our inverter/charger set-up and alternator program. Thanks for the continued input.

 

[Hayden Watson]

According to Epoch, the batteries should bulk charge at 14.6 volts and absorb at 14.2 volts. Would the 14.3 volt setting be high enough? I guess it’s not really critical since almost all of our charging is done with solar. We are on a mooring for most of the year. We spend the summer at a marina, but don't need to plug in because the solar works so well. At times, with the current AGM bank, we need to run the generator while spending a week at Catalina, but we’re hoping to avoid that with the new lithium bank. We mostly want to avoid damaging the batteries with our inverter/charger set-up and alternator program. Thanks for the continued input.

IMHO charging any LFP pack to 14.6v is at least bone headed and at worst dangerous to your battery. I have seen them and other manufacturers such as Battle Born make that comment but I think it should at best be "NEVER EXCEED 14.6V"
Let's do some quick math.

• 14.6v devided by -cells in series = 3.65v per cell.
• All of the cell manufactures say that the cell voltage should never exceed 3.65v.
• To charge to 14.6v the battery will need to be in perfect balance with a delta of 0.00v with all cells at exactly 3.65v.

Lets assum your battery is extreamly well balanced with only one over achieving cell with a 5mv delta. If you charge to 14.6v your cells will be at 3.649v + 3.649v + 3.649v + 3.653v = 14.6 and you just tripped the OVP and forced the BMS's FETs to shut off charging. If you use 14.6v as your charge voltage, you will be using the BMS as the charge controller rather than the safety value.

On my DIY build, I charge to 13.8v and let my JK keep everything in balance. On my Basen batteries, which have passive balancing, I charge to 14.2v with 60-minutes of absorption. In both cases I float at 13.3v or lower.

 

[Hayden Watson]

... and alternator program. Thanks for the continued input.

I think we have your shore charger sorted. What is your alternator setup. Most of the time, it is the alternator that is at risk rather than the batteries.