Adding second reef to main sail?

[CowboyWay]

My original sails that came with the boat only had a single reef point. I've out grown that and need a second if not a third reef point. I can get materials at Sailrite to add rings with patches, but where specifically should I position them on the sail? Also, any tips on running a line through the boom to connect it all? Any pictures of how others have the lines for their reefing setup would be appreciated.

thanks!

Current setup in pics below...

 

[john2]

we have 2 reefing points. yours looks like it is in the middle of the two reefs of our sail.
john

 

[Tally Ho]

By “I’ve grown out of that”, does that mean you want to go out in stronger winds, that the first reef doesn’t handle?

I have 2 reef point on my O’Day 322, but have never used the 2nd reef.

I currently have a single line reefing set up, but I have done it several ways over past few years.

I have run a line through the boom, up through the reef crinkle and tied off at the boom on the clew end, and a reef hook at the gooseneck for the tack. That is pretty simple, and makes a nice reef, but it requires me go to the mast to set the reef hook (unless I am smart enough to do it before I leave the dock.

My current set up uses 2 small blocks on carabiners at the reef crinkles, and a single line reef set up…which takes the reef line from the cockpit, out to the mast, up to the tack reef block, down to the base of the mast, up to the boom, through the boom, up to the clew reef block, and then tied off at the boom…lost yet?

here is a diagram that closely resembles what I have now…

Greg

 

[CowboyWay]

>> By “I’ve grown out of that”, does that mean you want to go out in stronger winds, that the first reef doesn’t handle?
Correct. I've been venturing out into greater winds (20 to 30 kts) lately. I've found that in 20 to 25 kt winds on a beam reach, ~5 foot waves, with my only reef on the main set and full Geneoa deployed, the boat is not balanced / is over powered heel is 20 to 25 which is too much. The helm is very heavy, requiring constant handling to hold coarse and combat weather helm. The Raymarine Autopilot is mostly ineffective in this situation as well. So my understanding is I need to reduce the main sail area with an additional reef. I'll note I also run the traveler all the way to leeward in this situation. Other advice is welcome!

In your diagram above, what kind of block do you have mounted on the mast that guides your reefing line? Here's what I have going on (White-Green line is the reefing line) which does not run back to the cockpit. I never learn from the previous owner how managed it. We just tie it off to the cleat, but not sure the point of the block?

 

[Tally Ho]

I can’t find a photo that clearly shows it, but I have a ring mounted on each side if the mast just below the boom height, and my reef line comes up from a turning block at the base of the mast, then through the rind, and up to the block at the reef crinkle…

You can see the ring in this shot, but it on the side of the mast that I don’t run a reef line through…

Here is what the block looks like (but this is my old sail…and I new use a locking carabiner to attach it to the sail).

The idea for the carabiner is that COULD move the reefing line to the second reef point if I wanted to…might be dicey doing it in weather, but easier that if the blocks were fixed on with clevis pins and those little ring retainers like shown in the photo.

Greg

 

[Calif. Ted]

What size genny ? wouldn't reducing the headsail reduce weatherhelm, reefed main with a genny is unbalanced is it not?

 

[Kings Gambit]

My experience with the sailing world says masthead rigs should go to a smaller headsail before reefing the mainsail. Fractional rigs should reef the mainsail ahead of going to a smaller headsail. If it were me I’d get a new mainsail built with a second reef point installed. But FYI I have the second reef point and have rarely used it.

 

[jssailem]

Your inquiry seeks sail build guidance. In of the Quantum Sails resource sites they posted this information.

Reefs: How Many and Where

Whether you’re heading out for a day sail or even an offshore passage, it’s important to be prepared for all conditions. Reefing your sail...

www.quantumsails.com

With your sail you will need to measure where the sailmaker set your reef point. Then decide what your second point should be for the sailing you desire.

Note as the wind increases you want to reduce the overall windage of the boat. The bunched main on the boom, the dodger, Bimini, height of the cabin above the waterline, even cushions in the cockpit all contribute to your windage affecting the sailing action of the boat. It is why sailors buy storm sails to keep going without the mainsail reefed, bunched up and tied to the boom.

Storm sails are cut differently than your main. They are generally small in size, very flat-cut sails. Often raised in pairs a jib and a main to balance the boat.

You are challenged by the hull design of the 310. Which keel do you have? The shoal keel or the deep fin. To build the desired interior room in the 310 the designer widened the hull and carried it to the stern. This wide hull design with the shoal wing keel would contribute to the boat’s heavy rudder you described. The hull is slipping as you heal. The rudder drags as you try to control the boat. Then eventually physics takes over, a gust of wind and your boat broaches. In winds over 30 you may need to resort to a real Storm Sail.

 

[CowboyWay]

Thanks all for the info. I have a wing keel and 150% genoa. Yes, the gusts are what I experienced that caused the rounding up.

 

[jssailem]

You may find new sails will help. But that is a but of a bite in the wallet. You have discovered since the purchase in 2020 that the term BOAT really means (break out another thousand).

The newer designs of sails really improve boat performance in wider ranges of wind.

I’d look to a 135 Genoa…

 

[Tally Ho]

I would certainly reef my head sail some when I reef my main to try and balance things out.

If either of your sails are old and baggy, that will contribute to poor boat handling. I replaced both of my sails over the past 3 or 4 years.

While controversial, I will often sail with just my jib in high wind conditions …for me, it is far easier to deal with just the jib (no going up to the mast to drop the sail into the Mack pack), and I can get hull speed in most cases with just a reefed jib (again, mine is a 135).

This was taken this past Wednesday night…I knew winds were going to be ripping, so I went jib only. I reefed it down as winds built up and I went from a down wind tack to a broad reach, and then a beat upwind. This was the downwind portion…

Here is an upwind leg…
Not quite hull speed (6.9 knots)…

Greg

 

[Kings Gambit]

I would certainly reef my head sail some when I reef my main to try and balance things out.

If either of your sails are old and baggy, that will contribute to poor boat handling. I replaced both of my sails over the past 3 or 4 years.

While controversial, I will often sail with just my jib in high wind conditions …for me, it is far easier to deal with just the jib (no going up to the mast to drop the sail into the Mack pack), and I can get hull speed in most cases with just a reefed jib (again, mine is a 135).

This was taken this past Wednesday night…I knew winds were going to be ripping, so I went jib only. I reefed it down as winds built up and I went from a down wind tack to a broad reach, and then a beat upwind. This was the downwind portion…

View attachment 219693

Here is an upwind leg…
Not quite hull speed (6.9 knots)…
View attachment 219694

Greg

Nice display!

 

[jviss]

I can’t find a photo that clearly shows it, but I have a ring mounted on each side if the mast just below the boom height, and my reef line comes up from a turning block at the base of the mast, then through the rind, and up to the block at the reef crinkle…

You can see the ring in this shot, but it on the side of the mast that I don’t run a reef line through…

View attachment 219680

Here is what the block looks like (but this is my old sail…and I new use a locking carabiner to attach it to the sail).

The idea for the carabiner is that COULD move the reefing line to the second reef point if I wanted to…might be dicey doing it in weather, but easier that if the blocks were fixed on with clevis pins and those little ring retainers like shown in the photo.
View attachment 219669


Greg

Greg, I'm not really following what you're doing here, and why. Why all the hardware? Why not just pass the reefing line through the ring? That's what I do on mine, with two reef single line reefing.

Also, are you saying you only have one reef rigged at any one time?

 

[Kings Gambit]

Thanks all for the info. I have a wing keel and 150% genoa. Yes, the gusts are what I experienced that caused the rounding up.

I assume you apply the regular remedies to rounding up in gusts. Drop the mainsheet traveler, temporarily ease or lug the mainsail, feather up (pinch slightly) to flatten the boat in strong gusts. Shorten headsail. I would not put in a new reef point before attempting (mastering) these other gust-control measures.

 

[jviss]

even cushions in the cockpit all contribute to your windage affecting the sailing action of the boat.

It is why sailors buy storm sails to keep going without the mainsail reefed, bunched up and tied to the boom.

Excuse me? The cockpit cushions?

The hull is slipping as you heal.

Not necessarily. First, it's heel. Second, no it's not, as long as you don't have lee helm, except that you're always making a bit of leeway, but even when heeled the keel, especially wing heels, are making lift.

In winds over 30 you may need to resort to a real Storm Sail.

No. If you can tie in two reefs in the main and have a headsail that's the appropriate size or with a well made luff pad so it can be roller-reefed, you can sail fine on the regular sails.

We do this all the time in New England. Winds kick up, take reef one, reef two, keep going.

Could be what you are saying applies to your region, I don't know. But I have been out in 35+ kt winds and have never seen anyone sailing under storm sails.

I recon less than 1% of sailboats even have storm sails.

 

[jviss]

Flattening sails is necessary when winds come up. Tighten the outhaul, the halyard, the main sheet, and tension the backstay, to get that main as flat as possible. Move the job leads to flatten the jib.

 

[JoeWhite]

CowboyWay, I do not have more to add to above advice in adjusting your sails, but I noticed the boom hinge bolt, turn that upside down so it is not lost if the nut comes loose.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Flattening sails is necessary when winds come up. Tighten the outhaul, the halyard, the main sheet, and tension the backstay, to get that main as flat as possible. Move the job leads to flatten the jib.

Yes, but those measures are not gust responses. If sustained winds are increasing, flatten the sails as described. For temporary gust control, do what I said above, whatever the trim state, until it is no longer effective in controlling the boat.. But if you are flattened down enough to start with, maybe a strong gust will not cause you to round up hard, etc.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Yes, but those measures are not gust responses. If sustained winds are increasing, flatten the sails as described. For temporary gust control, do what I said above, whatever the trim state, until it is no longer effective in controlling the boat.. But if you are flattened down enough to start with, maybe a strong gust will not cause you to round up hard, etc.

The principal driving force of rounding up when going to weather is a baggie mainsail. By baggie I mean the draft of the sail rides too far aft and is too deep (i.e., bagged). Use a Cunningham to bring the draft forward. Try to flatten it by increasing outhaul tension. If you do these things as the wind increases, you may not round up hard in the first place during a gust. Probably the most effective means of counteracting a gust is to ease the mainsheet, but that might cause loss of speed. So racers wiil ease the mainsheet traveler first.

A well trimmed sailboat with good sails and balanced sail plan will not have much weather helm in gusts. When they arrived, my Pearson 30 would heal a bit more initially and then accelerate; not try to round up hard.

 

[Tally Ho]

Greg, I'm not really following what you're doing here, and why. Why all the hardware? Why not just pass the reefing line through the ring? That's what I do on mine, with two reef single line reefing.

Also, are you saying you only have one reef rigged at any one time?

Trying to cut down friction in the system. I don’t get an even tensioning when I just go through the rings…tack tightens too much and clew doesn’t tighten enough.

Trying to use the blocks to reduce friction. And I only have 1 set of blocks, so I used the ‘biners to attach the blocks, but want to try soft shackles instead…those locking carabiners are heavy!

I get a decently even tensioned reef with this set up.


Greg