I need your Knowledge on Rudders

[Clay Smith]

As many of you know I'm in the process of purchasing a 2000 Hunter 420 Passage. I have viewed this boat twice now while it was on the hard. When viewing the boat the only thing I saw wrong with her is what appeared to be a little bit of delamination. (see rudder3 pic) I pointed that out to the broker who said he would let the seller know about it and that the defect needs to be repaired. My survey on the boat was scheduled for 5/11/23. But yesterday the marina where it is located asked if the surveyor could survey the boat asap as they needed to splash it so it is out of the way as real estate is sparce at this particular marina. So yesterday I met the surveyor at the boat and after finding the delam is much worse than I realized he recomended installing a new or reconditioned rudder. He stated that mussels are growing inside the rudder, that the foam is water logged and it will never dry out properly. There isn't enough time to do this now as they are splashing the boat Monday and since the seller is in finacial trouble I dont think he wil pay for the boat to come back out to be repaired. So I looked at rudders linked to this forum sight and I"m looking at just north of 5K for a new rudder and probably another 2k for a remove and replace. Can I get a reconditioned rudder for cheaper? If so where? I am mechanically inclined but am not sure how big of a job thats going to be on this boat so I dont know if I even want to take on the project. The surveyor stated that he felt it would be okay to run the boat this season and repair it next. I've posted three photos of the rudder. I would appriciate any and all thoughts as to how to proceed with this. What would you guys do? We will be doing the sea trial on 5/11/23.

 

[dlochner]

Walk away. The boat failed the survey you should get your deposit back. Alternatively, a significant reduction in price to compensate for the new rudder, installation, haul out and lost time. A price reduction in the $15-20K range would be appropriate. I'd walk away. There are plenty of boats out there.

 

[kappykaplan]

Walk away.

 

[Bob S]

I’m curious was there damage to the keel? That damage is from a grounding.

 

[dlochner]

I’m curious was there damage to the keel? That damage is from a grounding.

Possibly. The vertical splits are more typical of a water logged rudder. The question becomes then, how did the water get in there?

It also looks like it had been repaired once, the starboard side of the rudder has lots of fairing compound, the port side doesn't.

Rather than a hard grounding it looks more like it was in a shallow slip and the rudder was rubbing against something abrasive that wore away the seam. There are also gelcoat voids where the glass did not make the bend and left a void. That might also account for the extra fairing compound on the starboard side.

This is a boat to walk away from, especially with pressure from the marina to get it off their property.

 

[smokey73]

The rudder was made in by Foss Foam in Williston, Florida. (newrudders.com) They are really good people and rebuilt mine and I am very pleased. Call them and you can discuss the situation. They are still in business and have the original molds. If you have a stainless steel rudder post that is straight and in good shape, Foss will build you a new rudder on your original shaft. You should be able to buy a new rudder on this forum. Shipping is not cheap. I seriously doubt that you will find a "reconditioned" rudder around anywhere. This rudder must be replaced and you should expect a significant reduction in price as suggested by @dlochner unless it was disclosed by the seller and the cost of replacement (not repair) was already included in the price. It will not be quick and it will not be cheap. On some Hunters in the 90s, the shaft was stainless steel but the tabs welded on the rudder post were carbon steel. Foss can tell you if that is the case for a 2000 H420. If they were carbon steel tabs, I'd replace the rudder before I did any serious sailing considering the rudder is waterlogged.

I pulled mine while on the hard and then splashed the boat as the design is such that no water enters the boat, even with the rudder pulled. Then you can get the replacement rudder, haul the boat and have the rudder installed. It will take awhile and did I say it will not be cheap. There may be more costs than just the rudder as the steering "radial" is aluminum and may need to be replaced. The labor to get it out is not insignificant as the radial bolts are stainless in an aluminum.

What did the surveyor say about the rest of the boat? The damage may be indicative of a grounding and did he look closely at the keel, keel to stub joint, and keel bolts? Is there any indication of grounding damage anywhere else? How experienced was your surveyor in sailboats of this size? There a lot of variables and we don't have enough information to really help you much except to make sure you know what you are walking into. I wouldn't necessarily pass on the boat but I'd want a top notch survey.

@JamesG161 has alot of experience in rudder replacement.

 

[High Current]

I’m curious was there damage to the keel? That damage is from a grounding.

Speaking from personal experience as someone one who did walk away from a boat. I found some cracks I thought were suspicious, but after the survey grounding damage turned out to be quite extensive once we started digging. Have you had a good hard look under the cabin sole to make sure the keel matrix is solid? Any evidence of hull / keel stub damage from the keel being levered backward? Broken tabbing on the bulkheads? Etc.

You already had a surveyor look at the rudder, but it’s not clear how thorough the survey was. I would also be concerned about the rudder tube which obviously saw some large forces too.

If it’s just the rudder itself and you factor repairs / lost use into the price you might be able to get yourself a good deal. After all, half the respondents here would just walk away: I call that negotiating power. But be sure that’s all there is before you decide to go forward.

 

[shemandr]

I'm curious about the plan to go forward if that is the decision. Will the boat be at that marina? If the OP removes the rudder to send to Foss obviously he can't use the boat. The marina or towing company will charge to move the boat around - even slip to travel lift and back. If towing company moves the boat from marina to marina it will be expensive.
If the boat checks out otherwise I would launch it with the damaged rudder and take it to a marina of OP's choice and have a new rudder installed.
The pressure to move on the boat from the marina doesn't feel right. The seller's financial woes aren't yours - yet. And check that the seller is settled up with the marina (And that he isn't depending on your check to do so - if that's the case you have to treat the marina as a co-seller.) A lot of ifs here.
Maybe time to listen to Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots Were Made for Walking..."

 

[Siamese]

I too, would like to know how the rest of the boat surveyed. Without knowing that, and knowing the purchase price of the boat, it's impossible to say whether you should walk away.

The deal has a funny smell to it, though. It's obvious that the rudder is junk. And the broker said he'd let the owner know about it!?!? You mean, like the owner doesn't already know? Riiiiight. Hey, there are owners who are that oblivious to the condition of their boat. I suppose. And the time crunch thing has a stink to it.

I wouldn't want to sail that boat with the rudder looking like that. I'm not saying it's definitely going to fail, but I like to have essential equipment in shipshape order when I leave the dock.

This isn't helpful, but I wouldn't have hired a surveyor after seeing that rudder. IF...the boat looked good otherwise, and the deal was really good, I'd have taken pictures like you did, and inquired here and elsewhere before paying for a survey.

You have time, emotion, and the cost of a survey into this situation, and that creates momentum. Not easy, but that momentum needs to be ignored.

Based on the information you've shared....walk.

 

[JamesG161]

My new rudder for our H430, not installed cost, ≈$5200.

I bought the Rudder through this site.

Why?

They are the suppliers of Hunter OEM part and you can consult with retired people too.
You can download the H420 owners manual here.
H420

From that manual here is the rudder

I can help since the H420 and H430 are very similar boats.

Jim...

PS: Wild guess total installed cost $9000 for a new rudder.

 

[JamesG161]

I do not agree about Walking away.

The H420 is a well design boat and depending on the rest of the Survey...

The new Rudder is less than 10% of the boat fair market value.

What other issues were found on the Survey?

Jim...

 

[JamesG161]

The surveyor stated that he felt it would be okay to run the boat this season and repair it next

I agree, if sealed with E5200.
Jim...

 

[dlochner]

I do not agree about Walking away.

The H420 is a well design boat and depending on the rest of the Survey...

The new Rudder is less than 10% of the boat fair market value.

What other issues were found on the Survey?

Jim...

I know the broker and I know the marina and I've done business with both. Given the condition of the boat, the urgency of the marina to get the boat gone, and the buyer's experience, walking away is the better option.

If this was September, the marina was different, and the price was well adjusted for the damage, then it might be a good boat for the OP. However, it is May and as I understand it the boat will need to be moved. Marina space in other marinas near the boat is scarce. It is about 60 miles of open water between the boat's current location and the bay the OP lives near, a potentially risky trip. With all these factors, then walking away is probably the best answer.

10 years ago I bought a boat from the same brokerage that had a damaged rudder found by the surveyor that the broker and I were unaware of (yes I did inspect the rudder, long story but missed obvious damage for good reason). The brokerage worked with me and and the owner to have the repair done. The yard was a competent yard and it was October, so there was no pressure to move the boat out quickly. It may have helped that I know the owner of the brokerage and marina. If this was the OPs situation I would be less emphatic about walking away. I'd even go up to the boat with him and inspect it, but its not.

There are more boats out there.

 

[dlochner]

he surveyor stated that he felt it would be okay to run the boat this season and repair it next

@Clay Smith Who was the surveyor? PM me if you don't want to name him publicly.

 

[Clay Smith]

I agree, if sealed with E5200.
Jim...

the rest of the survey will be done on May 15,

 

[Clay Smith]

I'm curious about the plan to go forward if that is the decision. Will the boat be at that marina? If the OP removes the rudder to send to Foss obviously he can't use the boat. The marina or towing company will charge to move the boat around - even slip to travel lift and back. If towing company moves the boat from marina to marina it will be expensive.
If the boat checks out otherwise I would launch it with the damaged rudder and take it to a marina of OP's choice and have a new rudder installed.
The pressure to move on the boat from the marina doesn't feel right. The seller's financial woes aren't yours - yet. And check that the seller is settled up with the marina (And that he isn't depending on your check to do so - if that's the case you have to treat the marina as a co-seller.) A lot of ifs here.
Maybe time to listen to Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots Were Made for Walking..."

No pressure from the marina, the boat is blocking other boats that need to be splashed. I need a couple of peices of info if not more before I can begin to make a decision. 1. Is there anything else wrong with the boat? 2. What is the fair market value of the boat? 3. What or how is the seller willing to compensate for this major defect. So far for a 23 year old boat she looks very nice. It is important to note that now that the Broker is aware of the issue. (I texted him the photos.)The broker stated he has to devulge that piece of information to any perspective buyer. So the seller is going to have to make compsation with someone.
Seller needs to sell soon for personal reasons. I keep saying the rest of the survey is on the 15th but looking at my calendar its actually occurring on the 11th of this month. Meanwhile Ive started looking for other boats just in case.

 

[Clay Smith]

Possibly. The vertical splits are more typical of a water logged rudder. The question becomes then, how did the water get in there?

It also looks like it had been repaired once, the starboard side of the rudder has lots of fairing compound, the port side doesn't.

Rather than a hard grounding it looks more like it was in a shallow slip and the rudder was rubbing against something abrasive that wore away the seam. There are also gelcoat voids where the glass did not make the bend and left a void. That might also account for the extra fairing compound on the starboard side.

This is a boat to walk away from, especially with pressure from the marina to get it off their property.

Marina is Splashing it not getting it off there property.

 

[jviss]

Right on this site, rudder for 420 shoal draft: $4,969.69.
Rudder
But there are other reasons to be wary of Hunter 420 rudders:
1999 Hunter 420 Passage rudder

 

[Clay Smith]

My new rudder for our H430, not installed cost, ≈$5200.

I bought the Rudder through this site.

Why?

They are the suppliers of Hunter OEM part and you can consult with retired people too.
You can download the H420 owners manual here.
H420

From that manual here is the rudder

View attachment 215328

I can help since the H420 and H430 are very similar boats.

Jim...

PS: Wild guess total installed cost $9000 for a new rudder.

The rest of the survey will be performed on the 11th of may The only reason the Survey got started yesterday is the marina needed the boat outh of the way so they could splash other boats this boat was blocking. So the Marina simply asked if the surveyor could do the hull check yesterday instead of the 11th of may.
I dont dedect anything nafarious going on yet.