Keel rebedding or engineered fix for this catalina smile on Catalina 36?

[jimboslice]

Hello all, thanks in advance

I am considering purchasing this 1984 catalina 36 and completing the two Catalina engineered repair jobs myself (attached). I have spoken to some people that havn't seen the boat but say I will need to drop the entire keel and reseal it, a job I can't/dont want to do and dont want to pay a boatyard for. Obviously this is preferred, but is it required? Keel bolts look fine to me. Does anyone have experience with this and can determine from pictures which job is needed. It seems like boatyards I'm talking to are just guessing on what will solve it, so resort to rebedding the entire keel for liability. I think that removing the wood in the keel stub, tightening the keel bolts, grinding down and resealing the outside will get rid of this for good, or at least make it the every other year job that catalina owners suffer from. It definitely looks like the previous owners have attempted these resealing repairs before. Any advice or previous knowledge is appreciated!

 

[stickinthemud57]

Caveat - I don't own a keelboat and have no experience repairing them, so I will keep it short.

My biggest worry would be the condition of the bolts and supporting substrate where they can't be seen.

 

[dlochner]

Welcome to SBO.

Keel joint cracks are a common problem in almost all sailboats that are externally ballasted. The problem has 2 primary sources, differential expansion between lead and fiberglass and slight flexing of the joint while sailing.

Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I would just go with repairing the joint after torquing the keel bolts. Clean out the crack removing any loose material and any errant bottom paint. Fill the crack with something like 3m 4200 and be done with it. Glassing over the crack will be pretty much for cosmetics, it won't really prevent the crack from reappearing the future.

If there is evidence of the keel bolts corroding or the wood in the keel stump rotting, then dropping the keel and doing the major fix would be wise. Especially if the wood shows evidence of rot as the rot will cause loosing of the keelboats.

 

[jssailem]

Welcome to the forum.

An owner never wants to hear bad news. A buyer with a desire for a boat even more so.

If this was your work truck and you could hear a whining gravely sound from your right front tire. You pull into a service center and the mechanic says... "Say buddy I think you have a bearing going bad."

1. You can stop right there and ask if the guy has the time and part to fix it
2. or would you say... I only have 300 miles to go to get across the desert. I think I'll try to make it.

The attached image inside the circle is a hint.

There is a crack on the outside, that looks to have been there for a while. Water intrudes where ever it can. I would expect to see that water had entered the space between the keel and the stub over time. There are rust stains around the bolts on the fiberglass. Where did that come from? Perhaps there is another season possible with that boat. Perhaps you will discover that the cracks along the length of the keel are surface cracks. Perhaps when you start the grind you will release pent up water that has been corroding the SS keel bolts inside the lead keel.

All are unknowns. I suspect to discover the extent of damage will entail several boat bucks. And likely several more to complete the repairs. If that is all done will you have a boat that you really want? Only you can decide.

Best of luck.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Fill the crack with something like 3m 4200 and be done with it. Glassing over the crack will be pretty much for cosmetics, it won't really prevent the crack from reappearing the future.

Fwiw: Some owners of boats with bolt on keels in our area, have used g/flex with good results. Between winter and summer our keels likely experience a 60 degree centigrade temperature range.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Does anyone have experience with this and can determine from pictures which job is needed.

I can't see anyone being confident with making an assessment based on a picture. Especially if they have any experience.

Until the condition of the keel stub and keelbolts are fully investigated, it would just be guesswork and praying.

Apparently the stub has wood in it. That would eventually rot and need to be repaired when that happens.

have spoken to some people that havn't seen the boat but say I will need to drop the entire keel and reseal

Are they speaking from direct experience with a Catalina 36 ? If so, then they may be onto something. It is possible that in the majority of cases, the keels do need to be dropped, repaired, and resealed.

fwiw: I would post your question here:Forums | Catalina 36/375 International Association

 

[dlochner]

The worst case scenario, dropping the keel to rebed it and replacing the wood in the keel stump (what was Frank Butler thinking?) can only be assessed by removing the keel bolt nuts and taking a sample of the wood. Neither of which a surveyor will do nor should you until you own the boat.

 

[Leeward Rail]

replacing the wood in the keel stump (what was Frank Butler thinking?)

So it has Wood ?... Ugh. Personally I would avoid the boat or assume it needs the full repair and negotiate the price accordingly

 

[Sailm8]

I would call Catalina and ask them your question. I just toured the Florida plant last week. They answered everyone's questions in great detail. They spoke extensive about the construction of the keels over a period of years, improveing the adhesives as they were developed. They will know exactly what was used to construct your keel and what a correct repair would involved.
(727) 544-6681

 

[FastOlson]

All are unknowns. I suspect to discover the extent of damage will entail several boat bucks. And likely several more to complete the repairs. If that is all done will you have a boat that you really want? Only you can decide.

Kinda sums it up.

FWIW we had our external lead keel dropped and re-bedded many years ago. Strictly as preventative maintenance. The "bolts" were in good condition with only some rust staining on the threads.
(and yes, the real worry is bolt corrosion inside the joint where it cannot be seen.)

After about three decades it's a good idea on many boats. The yard will have (hopefully) a welded steel framework to put around the keel and secure it to. Then they lift the boat up with the travel lift. Clean up the mating surfaces and re-coat with 5200 or similar...... and remarry the parts. Good for another bunch of decades.

Unfortunate, but Some owners, when confronted with regular preventative maintenance chores, close their eyes and turn off their hearing aids. (heavy sigh)
Owning a big boat does require serious commitment to upkeep. The sailing/cruising rewards are bountiful, but this does come at a price.

 

[Terry Cox]

Obviously this is preferred, but is it required? Keel bolts look fine to me.

Hi Jim. Yes, it is required IMHO. Different brand boat here, so for that kind of smile, something caused the keel stub joint to fail. Normal sailing and cruising stresses should not cause that kind of failure. We had a similar stub joint failure like that in your picture. That was in 2004. The permanent repair was to drop the keel, clean up the stub joint, apply 3M-5200 to the entire joint surface, place the boat back onto the keel and let the sealant cure. While it is curing, check to see whether the keel bolt threads have been stressed. Ours were, so shim washers were placed onto the bolts to raise the keel nuts up into fresh threads. The keel nuts were torqued and re-torqued several times before the boat was ready for splash.

We've sailed our boat several thousand miles since then and the keel/stub repair remains as permanent as it was when the repair was done in 2004. Some suggest to clean out the crack and apply a sealant. Anything done from the outside would be a temporary fix. So much of the keel stub joint is hidden. Whether sea water has leaked in and caused corrosion, or that the keel stub bolts/studs have been stressed is unknown. The only way to find out is to remove the boat from the keel. Sorry.

 

[High Current]

I've spent more time than I care to admit researching keel integrity, mostly because I'm paranoid. I recently rejected a Catalina 34 that had similar issues, though in my case it wasn't the keel joint itself that scared me off so much as the discovery that the tabbing had been broken on most of the cross-members in the hull matrix (see picture). I don't see any in your picture, but it's a very limited view; you need to poke around in there with a flash light. Also look for evidence of the aft end of the keel pushing up into the hull, which would cause further structural damage. In my case, a better boat came along at a lower price just a couple of weeks later, so there's real merit to being willing to walk away.

It's a little hard to tell from the pics but the "catalina smile" does look larger than usual here, which definitely merits some further investigation and not just a quick fix with G-flex. There's a good chance it's "just" the plywood in the keel stub rotting, which is obviously fixable. I've done the G-flex repairs mentioned above, but would definitely plan/budget to drop and re-bed the keel at a minimum. But that can open up an expensive can of worms, e.g. if the keel bolts are rusting and you need new ones cast before the bolts can be re-torqued. My surveyor indicated to me that dropping/re-bedding the keel would be maybe a $5k job? If the keel needs to be shipped off to have new bolts cast in, expect another $10k.

Keel bolts are beastly things and my understanding is that they seldom fail suddenly, but rather elongate and let water start to leak into the bilge. The telltale sign is rust stains running down the keel from the crack, which I don't see in your picture so either someone cleaned it really well or they're probably OK.

More worrisome to me is the extensive cracking higher up that suggests possible damage to where the keel stub itself meets the hull. I'm guessing someone ran this aground pretty hard. If you have structural integrity issues there, it doesn't matter how robust your keel bolts are. Laminate failures are also, as I understand it, more likely to be sudden and catastrophic than keel bolt failures. I'd also be concerned about the tan-colored seepage from the diagonally (!!??) oriented crack in the second picture; you need to understand what's going on there too.

Fiberglass is always repairable, of course, it's just a question of time and money.