Crack on rudder

[Mclovin]

I hauled my boat this winter to check things out. We have 2001 hunter 460 and have had it for about a 1-1/2 years.
i have done some searching and investigating with mix of information.
The rudder is dry with no detectable water in it. If it is a crack is it an issue in that location? Can I re-seal with resins? Is it fixable and stable. I have read about rudders falling of. The is no movement.

 

[jssailem]

It looks like the gel coat and fairing compounds have chipped away. If there is no water now in the rudder, it will happen.

If you can repair it you should do it now, before the rudder fails while you are out using the boat.

 

[rgranger]

I'd use a grinder to open that crack up to convince myself it wasn't something more than a gel coat crack...and then I'd fair it with an epoxy formulation intended for below the water line... (some fillers absorb water so are not appropriate for below),.. then once it was fair again I'd put a few coats (3+) of epoxy barrier coat... followed by several coats bottom paint.

James Town Distributors are really good about getting on the phone with you to talk through options when buying a product. Talk with them about what fairing compound to buy.

 

[JamesG161]

Since I had to repair my Rudder, let me add some more thoughts...

From the H460 manual...

Consider the following update of your pictures...

No cause for Alarm, since it appears your boat is still water tight.

I can upload a better rudder design picture from my H430 manual, if you want. [same design as the H460]

Jim...

 

[dlochner]

A crack where the rudder post enters the rudder is not uncommon. The cause is the differential expansion of the SS rudder post and the fiberglass rudder. Over time a crack develops.

The proper repair is to clean the joint and remove whatever is sealing the joint and reseal it. The best choice for sealant will be something that has decent adhesive properties, is flexible, and can be used underwater, something like 4000 or 4200.

Lowering the rudder will make the job easier. Completely removing the rudder will make it easier to deal with the repairs to the rudder bearing.

While you have the rudder lowered, it is a good time to service the entire steering system. Gotta love project creep.

 

[smokey73]

On the 460 is the rudder post fiberglass or SS?

 

[JamesG161]

On the 460 is the rudder post fiberglass

per the 460 manual...
Fiberglass

 

[JamesG161]

A crack where the rudder post enters the rudder is not uncommon. The cause is the differential expansion of the SS rudder post and the fiberglass rudder. Over time a crack develops.

Well No!
I suggest looking at my post from the 460 manual shown in my post #4 above.

______

Lowering the rudder will make the job easier. Completely removing the rudder will make it easier to deal with the repairs to the rudder bearing.

Have you had your coffee today?

Lowering your Rudder is a big job!!
Jim....

 

[dlochner]

per the 460 manual...
Fiberglass

The drawing you posted says it has a SS sleeve at the top and bottom. That is the issue with thermal expansion.

 

[dlochner]

Well No!
I suggest looking at my post from the 460 manual shown in my post #4 above.

______

Have you had your coffee today?

Lowering your Rudder is a big job!!
Jim....

I've done it several times, there are worse jobs. The Hunter has an accessible quadrant, that makes it much easier than a quadrant buried in a lazarette.

 

[jssailem]

The use of Stainless Steel depends on the year of build. Initially Hunter used a milled tight tolerance fiberglass shaft. Later builds they switched to Stainless Steel shafts.

If you can get the boat positioned high enough it may be possible too lower and work on the rudder. As James says removing the rudder would be the time to inspect the system and fix it. The opportunity for project creep on this job is high. The realty is it will not fix it self. This rudder system has arrived at this condition through age and use. It will not get better. As it gets worse the system decay will accelerate.

The owner observed an anomaly and now has a known condition of a critical item. It kind of is up to him how he wants/needs to deal with it. Other boat owners like James would dive in and resolve the issue. Some would let it go til it breaks. Then there are some who would say we have enjoyed this go, and I just want to sell it to the next owner.

It is his boat and he gets to choose. That is one of the joys of this country and property ownership.

 

[JamesG161]

The drawing you posted says it has a SS sleeve at the top and bottom. That is the issue with thermal expansion.

This is , like you said "Job Creep"

Last from me about your comments.
__________
If the PO wants full info for his Rudder see this link in my post #102

Repairing boat after Hurricane Zeta

Jim...

 

[JamesG161]

For reference of what a FRP Rudder shaft with SS sleeves looks like...

Note the SS sleeves are embedded in the FRP and only 0.005 inch clearance between boat side UHMW bearings.
Thermal expansion, NOT.

Also zero wear on my 1998 H430 rudder SS bearing surface before Damage to my Rudder.

Jim...

 

[Dalliance]

For reference of what a FRP Rudder shaft with SS sleeves looks like...

View attachment 212561

Note the SS sleeves are embedded in the FRP and only 0.005 inch clearance between boat side UHMW bearings.
Thermal expansion, NOT.

Also zero wear on my 1998 H430 rudder SS bearing surface before Damage to my Rudder.

Jim...

I had never heard of fiberglass rudder stocks before and was wondering what torsional loading would do to a fiberglass rudder stock over time. Not to be alarmist, but this photo may answer that question.

 

[JamesG161]

had never heard of fiberglass rudder stocks before and was wondering what torsional loading would do to a fiberglass rudder stock over time. Not to be alarmist, but this photo may answer that question.

Bigger Hunters during those years had minor issues on the large FRP Rudder Stocks.

Size of the Boats matters!

I looked at the 1982 H30 manuals downloaded on this site, but no clear pictures for your boat's rudder.

Note my H430 Rudder Stock diameter. [ 6.25 inches same for the H460 above]


Hunter did change to Stainless on the H31 in ≈ 2003

As an Engineer, speaking now...

1) Forces are balanced with the 2 bearing points. All Hunter rudders have 2 bearing points.
2) Clearances are very small to prevent play, left and right.
3) Forces put on the rudder are Left-Right

The only Torque would be on the Steering Quadrant.

If your H30 design has FRP rudder stock, next time on the Hard, Check the Play in the Rudder, left/right.

No play , you should be okay.

Jim...

 

[dlochner]

For reference of what a FRP Rudder shaft with SS sleeves looks like...

View attachment 212561

Note the SS sleeves are embedded in the FRP and only 0.005 inch clearance between boat side UHMW bearings.
Thermal expansion, NOT.

Also zero wear on my 1998 H430 rudder SS bearing surface before Damage to my Rudder.

Jim...

Jim, is this from the hurricane?

The sleeving on rudder posts that I am familiar with are constructed in a different manner. The rudder pose on my boat is sleeved all the way into the rudder itself and appears to be a thicker sleeve. The post is carbon fiber.

Hunter's method of building your rudder and post seems unusual. More typically the post is SS and goes into the rudder where flanges extend into the rudder.

 

[JamesG161]

Jim, is this from the hurricane?

Yes.

The Rudder was pushed up when my H430 set down on it, after it broke the hurricane lines.

In that last picture, the boat yard was boxing it up to ship to Florida in Feb 2021.
New Rudder with Stainless Rudder post is now installed.

The thread is long, but I am carefully documenting for SBO Hunter owners and others too.

Repairing boat after Hurricane Zeta

This is the reason I can speak with knowledge.
Trust me, I have learned much more than I wanted to.

I would rather be Sailing...

Jim...

PS: You can tell I learned too much about Rudders there.

 

[dlochner]

his is the reason I can speak with knowledge.
Trust me, I have learned much more than I wanted to.

I would rather be Sailing...

Jim...

PS: You can tell I learned too much about Rudders there.

We don't learn anything when everything works as planned.

 

[Dalliance]

Bigger Hunters during those years had minor issues on the large FRP Rudder Stocks.

Size of the Boats matters!

I looked at the 1982 H30 manuals downloaded on this site, but no clear pictures for your boat's rudder.

Note my H430 Rudder Stock diameter. [ 6.25 inches same for the H460 above]


Hunter did change to Stainless on the H31 in ≈ 2003

As an Engineer, speaking now...

1) Forces are balanced with the 2 bearing points. All Hunter rudders have 2 bearing points.
2) Clearances are very small to prevent play, left and right.
3) Forces put on the rudder are Left-Right

The only Torque would be on the Steering Quadrant.

If your H30 design has FRP rudder stock, next time on the Hard, Check the Play in the Rudder, left/right.

No play , you should be okay.

Jim...

My ‘82 Cherubini designed H30 has a stainless steel rudder stock and the rudder is skeg mounted. It’s rock solid. No play. Log hose and packing were replaced a few years ago the last time the skeg was off. I have not heard of any of the Cherubini era Hunters having fiberglass rudder stocks.
It’s reassuring that your broken rudder stock was hurricane damage and not wear. However, I would disagree that the only torque is at the steering quadrant. When the quadrant is turning the rudder stock one way, the water is resisting, pushing the rudder the opposite way. I would call that opposing torsional loads, or twisting, and it’s right were the OP has identified a crack. Conversely, the spade style rudder does somewhat balance out the opposing torsional loads, so it’s not as extreme as it would be on my skeg mounted rudder with the stock at the leading edge of the rudder, but it would not net out to zero unless the rudder stock is at the center of the rudder.

 

[Mclovin]

hi all
thanks for all your suggestions. I dropped the rudder and dug into it. Everything was ridged and did not go deep. Ground it out and built it back up more than it was. Ill keep an eye on. Here what it now looks like.