Racing rule questions

[stickinthemud57]

Two scenarios - both boats on same tack, not overlapped and overlapped.

Per rules 11 and 12, in both instances, the windward boat (boat A) must keep clear. Easy enough when they are not overlapped, boat A just has to be prepared to come about if boat B decides to. If overlapped, boat A still is obligated to keep clear, but if boat B were to come about, it could result in a collision.

So, when overlapped, boat A's keep clear responsibility would include staying far enough away that boat B could come about with risking imminent collision.

Please let me know if anything I have said is incorrect, and offer any commentary or advice you feel is appropriate.

Thanks!

 

[Davidasailor26]

Per rules 11 and 12, in both instances, the windward boat (boat A) must keep clear.

Correct, although for different reasons. When overlapped A must keep clear because she’s overlapped and windward (Rule 11). When not overlapped A must keep clear because she’s behind B (Rule 12), regardless of who is to windward.

So, when overlapped, boat A's keep clear responsibility would include staying far enough away that boat B could come about with risking imminent collision.

Not exactly. A must keep clear of B, but B can’t change course so fast that A doesn’t have room to keep clear (Rule 16.1). So, A does not need to stay far enough away that B could turn at any time. A just needs to allow B to steer a straight line, and turn immediately to keep clear if B comes up. If B continues to tack she also has no rights at all from the time she passes head to wind until she’s on her new close-hauled course (Rule 13). Essentially that means B can’t force room to tack there, unless she’s hailing about an obstruction (Rule 19).

 

[stickinthemud57]

Thanks!

OK, so in theory boat A, if overlapped, could in effect prevent boat B from tacking as long as it stays clear enough that if boat B were able to sail closer to the wind on that tack that they could do so without colliding with boat A. Is this correct?

If so, it would seem that once overlapped and so close that tacking would result in a collision, boat B's only option if they want to tack is to slow down and come clear astern of boat A before tacking. Is this correct?

My coach has mentioned a "mast abeam" condition that affects the overlapped scenario. Any comments/insights on that?

 

[Davidasailor26]

OK, so in theory boat A, if overlapped, could in effect prevent boat B from tacking as long as it stays clear enough that if boat B were able to sail closer to the wind on that tack that they could do so without colliding with boat A. Is this correct?

Correct. B can luff as far as head to wind (slowly enough that A has time to respond). A must continue to keep clear. But B can’t actually pass head to wind and complete the tack unless there’s room for her to do so without contact or causing A to tack.

If so, it would seem that once overlapped and so close that tacking would result in a collision, boat B's only option if they want to tack is to slow down and come clear astern of boat A before tacking. Is this correct?

B’s options are indeed pretty limited. She could scrub speed like you said. Probably a better option is to bear off and open up the gap until she has room to tack. She’ll probably still need to duck A, but at least she’ll be just below A’s stern and carrying good speed, instead of struggling to recover from a down-speed tack. If you modify your scenario and put A and B on port tack there’s the possibility of another option, especially in a crowded fleet. B could wait for a starboard tack boat to approach with rights. The starboard boat would be an obstruction and B could hail for room to tack. A would need to respond either by tacking away or hailing “you tack” and ensuring to avoid B while she tacks. That’s probably the higher risk option though as it adds more commotion to the mix.

My coach has mentioned a "mast abeam" condition that affects the overlapped scenario. Any comments/insights on that?

I’ve heard legends about the mast abeam rule, but it was removed from the rule book somewhere around 20 years ago. My understanding is it limited the rights of the leeward boat depending on her mast’s position relative to the windward boat’s helm.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Thanks! That last comment makes sense. My coach is 82, and by his own admission has not put his nose in the rule book in recent memory.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Correct. B can luff as far as head to wind (slowly enough that A has time to respond). A must continue to keep clear. But B can’t actually pass head to wind and complete the tack unless there’s room for her to do so without contact or causing A to tack.

B’s options are indeed pretty limited. She could scrub speed like you said. Probably a better option is to bear off and open up the gap until she has room to tack. She’ll probably still need to duck A, but at least she’ll be just below A’s stern and carrying good speed, instead of struggling to recover from a down-speed tack. If you modify your scenario and put A and B on port tack there’s the possibility of another option, especially in a crowded fleet. B could wait for a starboard tack boat to approach with rights. The starboard boat would be an obstruction and B could hail for room to tack. A would need to respond either by tacking away or hailing “you tack” and ensuring to avoid B while she tacks. That’s probably the higher risk option though as it adds more commotion to the mix.

In this diagram, both A & B are both on Stbd tack so B would be waiting a long time for a boat that could cause an obstruction! (I was also thrown at first by the wind coming from the right side of the drawing, when traditionally we see it coming from the top down!) This seems like a very sticky situation that doesn't occur very often. It seems that A could chase B way past a lay line if he was so inclined to disrupt B's progress during a race. Not to mention that if B were to tack, as soon as he passes head to wind, he will be on port tack. So what is the best course of action for B?

I'd suggest that perhaps a very quick 270 degree jibe might be one answer. It might be the fastest way to clear A's stern. I've never practiced such a maneuver for the purpose of seeing if it can be done quickly. The sails are already close hauled, so there may not be very much preparation necessary. I've done it casually, just for the sake of jibing while still sailing upwind. I wonder if there is any record of anybody using such a maneuver to get out of jail, so to speak!

 

[Davidasailor26]

I'd suggest that perhaps a very quick 270 degree jibe might be one answer. It might be the fastest way to clear A's stern. I've never practiced such a maneuver for the purpose of seeing if it can be done quickly. The sails are already close hauled, so there may not be very much preparation necessary. I've done it casually, just for the sake of jibing while still sailing upwind. I wonder if there is any record of anybody using such a maneuver to get out of jail, so to speak!

Would be interesting to experiment with, but my guess is the 270 puts you much farther behind A’s stern than just bearing off 10 degrees until the gap opens, then tacking. Make a good tack and stay low to duck A and you can be inches below them with more speed. The next time you converge you’ll almost certainly cross ahead. A could bear off when they see B bear off, but assuming it’s a fleet race that’d be cutting off their nose to spite their face. In a match it could work. Carried to an extreme you end up in a situation like what starts at 1:32 in

 

[stickinthemud57]

Great responses! It's interesting that the "give way" boat (in this case boat A) can force the "stand on" boat (boat B) to hold a course that it may not wish to. Of course, sailing too far past the lay line may not be a winning strategy. In my case, I still managed to make it to the windward mark ahead of the rest of the fleet (including boat B), most of whom were on a starboard tack. Because I had gone a bit past my lay line, making the windward mark was easier, and I may have enjoyed better VMG in the process.

Boat B could have avoided this by tacking before boat A got close enough to lock them in, but may have forced boat B to tack two more times to make the windward mark.

T-Bird - thanks for pointing out my departure from convention re the wind direction. New at this!

So, the takeaway for me is to always try to pass to windward of a boat on an upwind leg. As long as the boat I am passing cannot consistently outpoint me, I will be able to control when the tack is made unless they resort to killing speed and tacking astern or doing a 270. In either of those cases it seems that as long as I can react quickly I will be able to maintain the advantage.

 

[Davidasailor26]

So, the takeaway for me is to always try to pass to windward of a boat on an upwind leg. As long as the boat I am passing cannot consistently outpoint me, I will be able to control when the tack is made unless they resort to killing speed and tacking astern or doing a 270. In either of those cases it seems that as long as I can react quickly I will be able to maintain the advantage.

Yes, passing to windward is almost always best. There is a spot of bad air behind and to windward of the leading boat that’s a little hard to sail through, as you’ll feel like you’re sailing through a header. But once you get through that you’re much better off. Passing to leeward is tactically disadvantaged and you need to sail through very bad air in the other boat’s shadow.

Generally, if B tries to tack out of that spot and duck A, A should tack quickly to cover B and stay to windward. If A goes straight they split and B gets a better chance to cross ahead at the next convergence.

 

[Hayden Watson]

I had a similar situation in a windy PHRF JAM race. I was B and the other boat was A and was also 24' longer. (B-C30 & A-54-ft ketch) "A" was obviously faster through the water given his extra 20' of waterline but B was pointing +10º higher. I was easily crossing A's bow with my stern over 4' to windward before B had overlap and all was good when a gust hit us and A rounded up with her bowsprit swinging to windward over my backstay (yes, over) and ended up with at least a 10' overlap and I was still pointing 10º higher. The wind was about 20-knots and I had two crew on board who had never raced and had limited sailing experience. I close hauled and trimmed tight and could not turn down without easing sail but the crew had no idea what to do. I steer from the low side so I leaned forward to the primary and let out about a foot of jib sheet as I turned down to avoid getting run over which gave us some room. Fortunately, A tacked and so that she did not sail down on my again.
After the race I talked to the other skipper who was new to racing and explained to him that as the windward boat, He was required to stay clear and had fouled me. I explained that in our fleet, almost all of the boats would point higher going to windward and the rules would require him to duck or tack in those situations.

 

[Davidasailor26]

I had a similar situation in a windy PHRF JAM race. I was B and the other boat was A and was also 24' longer. (B-C30 & A-54-ft ketch) "A" was obviously faster through the water given his extra 20' of waterline but B was pointing +10º higher. I was easily crossing A's bow with my stern over 4' to windward before B had overlap and all was good when a gust hit us and A rounded up with her bowsprit swinging to windward over my backstay (yes, over) and ended up with at least a 10' overlap and I was still pointing 10º higher. The wind was about 20-knots and I had two crew on board who had never raced and had limited sailing experience. I close hauled and trimmed tight and could not turn down without easing sail but the crew had no idea what to do. I steer from the low side so I leaned forward to the primary and let out about a foot of jib sheet as I turned down to avoid getting run over which gave us some room. Fortunately, A tacked and so that she did not sail down on my again.
After the race I talked to the other skipper who was new to racing and explained to him that as the windward boat, He was required to stay clear and had fouled me. I explained that in our fleet, almost all of the boats would point higher going to windward and the rules would require him to duck or tack in those situations.

You were both lucky to have A go over the backstay and not into it!

In those situations it can be very hard to keep clear, but equally hard to give room to keep clear. Because boats turn from the stern just turning to avoid someone can push your stern into them. It takes some extra anticipation to think about how the boat will react and whether you really can fit where you want to.

It's definitely valuable to know the rules. Here's another related story from the Sydney to Hobart race a few years ago:

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/more-sports/sydney-to-hobart-wild-oats-xi-stripped-of-line-honours-win-after-protest-with-ldv-comanche-to-be-declared-winner/news-story/5ddf68856e8bf8d232db15f41d9c5225

To summarize that situation - Wild Oats and Comanche were crossing shortly after the start, with Wild Oats on port. Wild Oats tacked onto starboard but they didn't get onto a close hauled course until after Comanche had to head up slightly to avoid them. Comanche protested, and Wild Oats chose not to do turns, asserting they had kept clear until after their tack. Wild Oats went on to win the race by 25 minutes, but the jury penalized them one hour for fouling Comanche, so they ended up coming in second. If they had chosen to do their turns they surely would've completed them in less than 25 minutes, and likely would've come out winning the race.

 

[Stu Jackson]

and offer any commentary or advice you feel is appropriate.

In the first sketch, how is boat A to windward?

 

[stickinthemud57]

In the first sketch, how is boat A to windward?

Thanks for pointing out that inaccuracy. In fact, boat A is clear astern in the first sketch. It is not until it is overlapped with boat B that it can be considered to windward. Learning as I go along...

 

[PaulK]

Thanks for pointing out that inaccuracy. In fact, boat A is clear astern in the first sketch. It is not until it is overlapped with boat B that it can be considered to windward. Learning as I go along...

Sorta kinda... A boat can be to windward of another while still being clear astern (or clear ahead) of the other boat. A boat can be to leeward of another without being overlapped too.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Sorta kinda... A boat can be to windward of another while still being clear astern (or clear ahead) of the other boat. A boat can be to leeward of another without being overlapped too.

Of course they can, but we're talking about the OP's question and sketch. Aren't we? Least I was...

 

[danstanford]

Two scenarios - both boats on same tack, not overlapped and overlapped.

Per rules 11 and 12, in both instances, the windward boat (boat A) must keep clear. Easy enough when they are not overlapped, boat A just has to be prepared to come about if boat B decides to. If overlapped, boat A still is obligated to keep clear, but if boat B were to come about, it could result in a collision.

So, when overlapped, boat A's keep clear responsibility would include staying far enough away that boat B could come about with risking imminent collision.

Please let me know if anything I have said is incorrect, and offer any commentary or advice you feel is appropriate.

Thanks!

The leeward boat could not tack here as they would immediately be in a port starboard situation and lose right of way.

 

[Apex]

rule 13, while tacking....after a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11, and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other's port side or the one astern shall keep clear.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Thanks for all the responses. Forces me to think, which leads to learning, at least eventually!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

A could bear off when they see B bear off, but assuming it’s a fleet race that’d be cutting off their nose to spite their face. In a match it could work. Carried to an extreme you end up in a situation like what starts at 1:32 in

There must have been controversy over this, no? Ainslie had a chance to win gold by winning that race (depending upon the Brazilian finishing lower than 11th), but instead he chose the dirty trick method to get his gold medal. To me, this looks like the absolute worst in sportsmanship, which I thought the British were supposedly known for. After seeing this (occuring over 20 years ago), I've lost all respect for Ainslie, or at least I've lost all respect for his gold medal. He should be ashamed! How can he call himself a sailor!

 

[Hayden Watson]

There must have been controversy over this, no? Ainslie had a chance to win gold by winning that race (depending upon the Brazilian finishing lower than 11th), but instead he chose the dirty trick method to get his gold medal. To me, this looks like the absolute worst in sportsmanship, which I thought the British were supposedly known for. After seeing this (occuring over 20 years ago), I've lost all respect for Ainslie, or at least I've lost all respect for his gold medal. He should be ashamed! How can he call himself a sailor!

There is nothing unsportsmanlike about Ainslie's tactics. The gold was "the prize" and was only contested between Ainslie and Brazil. That made this race into a match race between the two boats with this strategy and would leave it up to chance if he did not. What he did was completely within the rules. It was a very high-risk strategy because the possibility of Ainslei fouling BR was great and that would surely have given the gold to BR.