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[Maine Sail]

Hi all,

My recovery is super slow but thanks to Nigel I've been able to use Dragon speech to text software. this has allowed me to get back to writing. My left arm is finally starting to show some movement but, not much.Fingers are starting to show little bit of movement as well but not much. I'm walking around with what's called a quad cane but I'm still very unstable so most of the time in a wheelchair.My biggest fight is my ham string muscles that have not yet come back at all..

The good news is that I've been able to get three new articles done in the last month and 1/2...

Battery Banks & Over-current Protection

Choose Your Portable/Maintenance Chargers Carefully

Drop-In LiFePO4 Batteries – Be an Educated Consumer




M

 

[Apex]

glad to hear of the progress Rodd! Keep writing, and thanks for sharing your knowledge across the entirety of the sailing community, esp this little corner that is SBO
.

 

[kappykaplan]

Well done, Rodd! Keep getting better!!!!

 

[Phil Herring]

You're amazing.

 

[WayneH]

On a scale of 1 to 10 with Rod being a 10, this is probably a 2. I recently broke my elbow. The doctor says it does not require surgical intervention but a heap of physical therapy which I can do at home. The doctor mentioned that due to my age, I might not regain full use of my arm for 6-8 weeks. When I asked why, the doctor said, "You're old and it takes longer."

 

[Hayden Watson]

@Maine Sail Very good article on the portable chargers.
Do you know if the info you posted on the IP 65 & 67 would also apply to their IP22 chargers?

 

[BAD ORCA]

Hi Mainesail,

Nice to see you active again. The Lithium article was really good. Haven't had the time to read the others yet.

Its good your back and active, marinas across the world we're about to start catching fire and burning down due to DIY'r electricians like me without any of your guidance. Think of all the boats your saving now.

BO~

 

[Tally Ho]

On a scale of 1 to 10 with Rod being a 10, this is probably a 2. I recently broke my elbow. The doctor says it does not require surgical intervention but a heap of physical therapy which I can do at home. The doctor mentioned that due to my age, I might not regain full use of my arm for 6-8 weeks. When I asked why, the doctor said, "You're old and it takes longer."

I went to PT for my right shoulder, thinking I had a tear in my rotator cuff. The therapist asked me if I played baseball or some other sport where I was using my right hand to throw or something.

I started making a circular motion like I was cranking on a winch…I said would this motion do it ?
Yes he said…probably.

I have been working on the strength in my right shoulder for a few months to try and get my winching arm in shape!

Greg

 

[PaulK]

Great to hear and see that the fog seems to be burning slowly off. You may need to change your profile pic if things continue this way .

 

[Hayden Watson]

I went to PT for my right shoulder, thinking I had a tear in my rotator cuff. The therapist asked me if I played baseball or some other sport where I was using my right hand to throw or something.

I started making a circular motion like I was cranking on a winch…I said would this motion do it ?
Yes he said…probably.

I have been working on the strength in my right shoulder for a few months to try and get my winching arm in shape!

Greg

That is why, as I get older, I have taken to mostly using a push/pull technique on the winch handle I find that it is less troublesome on the shoulder.

 

[jaysweet]

Thanks for the articles, Mainsail, and good luck with your recovery!

I've just replaced a Group 27 "deep cycle" house battery, which got ruined in just 2 years*, with a pair of 230 AH 6V golf cart batteries (flooded LA), and I'd like to keep them in good shape. I currently have a 2004-vintage Protech 4 charger installed, which is wired separately to both banks (house = now the 2x6V bank, and start = group 24 flooded lead acid). I'd like to buy one of the chargers in your article (say the 15A Victron IP65), but it looks like I'd need 2 different chargers to charge the 2 banks. Is this right? Or perhaps I can just keep the Protect for the starter and use the new Victron for the house bank.

I guess I'm assuming that the Protech 4 is 18 years old, and perhaps (?) not optimal. The documentation that came with it seems to indicate that it does "fast charge", absorption, and float stages. I think it claims 14.8V for fast chargers, and 12.8V for float. I'm not seeing anything listed from absorption. BTW: our boat sits in a slip most of the time between early May and early November, plugged in to shore power with the charger on.

* I didn't have a battery monitor, and I think I ruined it on a 2-week cruise spent mostly off AC power, using only the engine for charging. The new setup will have a Balmar SG200:

 

[Davidasailor26]

Thanks for the articles, Mainsail, and good luck with your recovery!

I've just replaced a Group 27 "deep cycle" house battery, which got ruined in just 2 years*, with a pair of 230 AH 6V golf cart batteries (flooded LA), and I'd like to keep them in good shape. I currently have a 2004-vintage Protech 4 charger installed, which is wired separately to both banks (house = now the 2x6V bank, and start = group 24 flooded lead acid). I'd like to buy one of the chargers in your article (say the 15A Victron IP65), but it looks like I'd need 2 different chargers to charge the 2 banks. Is this right? Or perhaps I can just keep the Protect for the starter and use the new Victron for the house bank.

I guess I'm assuming that the Protech 4 is 18 years old, and perhaps (?) not optimal. The documentation that came with it seems to indicate that it does "fast charge", absorption, and float stages. I think it claims 14.8V for fast chargers, and 12.8V for float. I'm not seeing anything listed from absorption. BTW: our boat sits in a slip most of the time between early May and early November, plugged in to shore power with the charger on.

* I didn't have a battery monitor, and I think I ruined it on a 2-week cruise spent mostly off AC power, using only the engine for charging. The new setup will have a Balmar SG200:
View attachment 205563

The Victron 15A sounds a little light for that bank. The rule of thumb is to get 10% off your bank’s AH capacity plus your typical house loads. I think you’ll find that lots of 3 stage chargers in that size range support two or three banks.

 

[jaysweet]

The Victron 15A sounds a little light for that bank. The rule of thumb is to get 10% off your bank’s AH capacity plus your typical house loads. I think you’ll find that lots of 3 stage chargers in that size range support two or three banks.

The "a little light" thing might be true, although most of our sailing is daysails or overnights. I really want the new bank to be able to do a 2-week cruise and still sail for 7 hours is the winds are right, but I'm only feeding the plotter and autopilot most of that time. (I know: solar would be good to have for this.) Anyway, the battery charger peak capacity is probably (?) pretty much irrelevant for 98% of the time, as it will usually be plugged in for 6-7 days.

As for the chargers which support 2 banks, I know I could find that. Mainsail's article specifically talks about how much he likes these new Victron chargers. It doesn't sound like they support more than one bank, so I wonder if there is an equivalent Victron that does?

 

[Davidasailor26]

The "a little light" thing might be true, although most of our sailing is daysails or overnights. I really want the new bank to be able to do a 2-week cruise and still sail for 7 hours is the winds are right, but I'm only feeding the plotter and autopilot most of that time. (I know: solar would be good to have for this.) Anyway, the battery charger peak capacity is probably (?) pretty much irrelevant for 98% of the time, as it will usually be plugged in for 6-7 days.

As for the chargers which support 2 banks, I know I could find that. Mainsail's article specifically talks about how much he likes these new Victron chargers. It doesn't sound like they support more than one bank, so I wonder if there is an equivalent Victron that does?

@Maine Sail can correct me of course if if I’ve got any of this wrong, but I think even in cases where the batteries will have plenty of time to charge a larger charger is recommended. Here’s what Calder says for chargers when AC is continuously available - “the charger needs to have a rated output equal to the continuous DC load, plus 5% to 10% of the amp-hour capacity of the batteries it is charging. (When a multistep charger is being used, some industry sources feel 10% should be the lower limit; if output is much less than this, the charger may have trouble driving the batteries to the bulk-charge termination voltage, creating the potential for damage through overcharging.)” A 15A charger is 6.5% of your house bank, not counting any other loads, so I guess you’d be borderline ok there if the charge profile is appropriate

Maine’s article was targeting maintenance chargers more than 3 stage smart chargers. He’s recommended the Sterling ProCharge Ultra or the Promariner ProNautic P in another thread recently for 3 stage charging.

How is your alternator set up to charge the batteries? If it’s through a combiner like an ACR you could use that to charge both banks from a single output charger too.

 

[jssailem]

Jay, The Victron chargers identified are decent support units that help keep a battery bank up over a winter period. The defined usage of cruising for a period of time "2-week cruise" questions how would you be spending your evenings. Do you enjoy anchoring out in secluded bays, or are you jumping from marina to marina with adequate AC power connections. You now have a 230 AmpHr bank that at 50% gives you 115 amphrs of electrical consumable power (the discharge to 50% recommended range). 7 hours of Axiom9 chart plotter usage consumes about 7 of those available 115 amphrs. What else would be used during your cruising? Auto Pilot, phone or ipad recharging comes to mind, as does the enjoyment of music. When you add it up you can better understand consumption and recharging requirements.

Most owners of a boat like you 306 Catalina will opt for a unit like identified by David and MainSail. Perhaps in the 30Amp size. The unit gets hard wired into your boat and operates when you plug into AC dock power and you flip the switch. The one charger is designed to service the needs of both your battery banks (house and starter) by using the suggested ACR (automatic charging relay). Again when installed this system works behind the scenes automatically.

 

[jaysweet]

@Maine Sail can correct me of course if if I’ve got any of this wrong, but I think even in cases where the batteries will have plenty of time to charge a larger charger is recommended. Here’s what Calder says for chargers when AC is continuously available - “the charger needs to have a rated output equal to the continuous DC load, plus 5% to 10% of the amp-hour capacity of the batteries it is charging. (When a multistep charger is being used, some industry sources feel 10% should be the lower limit; if output is much less than this, the charger may have trouble driving the batteries to the bulk-charge termination voltage, creating the potential for damage through overcharging.)” A 15A charger is 6.5% of your house bank, not counting any other loads, so I guess you’d be borderline ok there if the charge profile is appropriate

Maine’s article was targeting maintenance chargers more than 3 stage smart chargers. He’s recommended the Sterling ProCharge Ultra or the Promariner ProNautic P in another thread recently for 3 stage charging.

How is your alternator set up to charge the batteries? If it’s through a combiner like an ACR you could use that to charge both banks from a single output charger too.

I think you're probably right about needing a bigger charger. I did look more closely at the existing charger I've had since 2004. I think for its day, it was probably a pretty high quality bit of gear. Here it is:

So the existing one has a 30 amp capacity, does multiple banks (which can mean different things: does it charge both banks at the same rate, regardless of what each bank needs?), and has setting for standard lead acid and gel batteries. (I just put in regular flooded lead acid, so fancy options aren't relevant at this time to me). It also has switches to allow 1, 2, 3, or 4 hour absorption times.

So the interesting part, to me, is that I now have a Balmar SG200 monitor installed (as of Sunday), so I have some hard information about what's going on during the 3 different phases. (Not sure what the "4-step" referred to. It supposedly does fast charge, absorption, and float stages.) I've already noticed that during the absorption phase, I think it was 14.3 volts with decreasing current. And then in the float stage, it was 13.3 volts with 0 amps. During absorption, I could definitely hear a boiling noise coming from the brand new GC2 batteries, but even during the float stage, I could hear a much, much quieter hiss from the batteries, even though the Balmar says there was 0 amps moving. My slight concern with this is that they're on AC power 99% of the time for 6 months, so I don't want them to lose water too quickly. But over the past 18 years with a group 24 and group 27 battery, I've generally had to re-water only 1-2 times a season.

Anyway, now I'm thinking I should probably just stick with the charger I already have installed for now. How much am I going to spend to make life perfect for a pair of GC2 6V batteries which cost $300 total, when the existing charger looks reasonable?

To answer your question:
The alternator output (60 amp std. equipment (Hitachi?) for the 2GM20F) goes to whichever bank I have the 1-2-both switch set for. Which is almost always the house bank on a trip. No ACR. Whereas the Promariner Protech 4 charger charges the 2 banks independently, I think.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[jaysweet]

Jay, The Victron chargers identified are decent support units that help keep a battery bank up over a winter period. The defined usage of cruising for a period of time "2-week cruise" questions how would you be spending your evenings. Do you enjoy anchoring out in secluded bays, or are you jumping from marina to marina with adequate AC power connections. You now have a 230 AmpHr bank that at 50% gives you 115 amphrs of electrical consumable power (the discharge to 50% recommended range). 7 hours of Axiom9 chart plotter usage consumes about 7 of those available 115 amphrs. What else would be used during your cruising? Auto Pilot, phone or ipad recharging comes to mind, as does the enjoyment of music. When you add it up you can better understand consumption and recharging requirements.

Most owners of a boat like you 306 Catalina will opt for a unit like identified by David and MainSail. Perhaps in the 30Amp size. The unit gets hard wired into your boat and operates when you plug into AC dock power and you flip the switch. The one charger is designed to service the needs of both your battery banks (house and starter) by using the suggested ACR (automatic charging relay). Again when installed this system works behind the scenes automatically.

John,
I think on a 2 week cruise, I'd probably be at a marina for 3-4 nights. So those nights, I'd get back to 100% charge (assuming the electric works, which it didn't in Oxford MD in 2020). My main draws would be the Axiom 9, as you say, plus the ST4000+ autopilot. For the Axiom 9, the manual shows 9 watts max at 12 volts, so it should draw 3/4 of an amp (P=VI). Let's say 8 hours of this = 6 amp-hours. Close enough to your estimate of 7. The auto-pilot says "10 watts at 25% duty cycle", so that would be (10/12)*8 = 6.7 amp-hours. So that's 12.7 amp-hours plus cabin lights (not LED yet) plus anchor light. I don't even know if this is remotely reasonable, but I'll have a better estimate if I goof around with the new battery monitor and get some readings. I would definitely do some iPad and iPhone recharging, although mostly when the engine is running if possible. As you know, on a bad day, you're running the engine for 8 hours. On a really good day, you're doing an hour in the morning, 8 hours of sailing, and an hour in the evening, coming and going from some inlet.

No refrigeration and no air conditioning. Also, no solar (that's for another day).

As I mentioned above, maybe I should just stick with the 30 amp system I already have, which is a well installed (I think) multi-bank charger. Although it is pretty old now. Comments are welcome.

 

[Blitz]

If you are concerned about water loss and insist on keeping your charger always on at the slip I would suggest looking into water miser battery caps from Flow Systems if you have the height. I'm not affiliated but have experience that they work very good. It is not that you never have to add water but you have to add much less over a season.