1987 Catalina 22 Outboard Spring Assist Lift Bracket

[John Marrone]

This Boat Design (New Design Dinette) we have incorporates a Fuel Compartment Box that is part of the Cockpit configuration.

This means any access to the Outboard Assisted Lift Bracket bolt & nut are through the transom and into the cockpit fiberglass.

Whoever may have installed this current outboard spring lift device, over tightened one of the bots where there are stress cracks in the cockpit fiberglass that incorporate this Fuel Tank Cabinet not part of the interior of the Cabin.

I have attached these available CD Brackets for strengthening the new installment. However, the angle bracket as shown will not fit because the fuel compartment box leaves only an inch or so to access the current bolt and nut.

It appears there is a void between the transom and the inner workings of the cockpit fiberglass. Would I be mistaken to think the only support this outboard spring assist lift has, is the cockpit fiberglass and not the transom fiberglass?
(See Attached Sketch)

 

[Gene Neill]

I've never had my motor mount off, so I'm just going by a mental picture.

If there's a void between the liner and the transom, I'd probably pack some thickened epoxy into it. THIXO or West Six10 (in caulk tubes) might make it easier to get the product into the void.

If those CD brackets are unsuitable, I'd use a sheet of structural fiberglass or G10 as a full-size backing plate. McMaster-Carr

 

[John Marrone]

Thanks............ Only reason I am considering reattaching this outboard bracket is because of the black tar sealer someone used that has oozed out of the brackets seal and now causing orange stains all over the transom exterior. This was always a freshwater boat in the past and now that it is in the salt water, this black ooze does not play well in a saltwater environment.

 

[Leeward Rail]

This means any access to the Outboard Assisted Lift Bracket bolt & nut are through the transom and into the cockpit fiberglass.

Not sure if I understand that correctly.
On our 87 new design, the outboard motor bracket bolts do not go into the cockpit.
The bolts should only go through the transom, and have a backing plate of plywood+fiberlass or "Starboard" etc. on the inside of the transom, which you access by crawling into the space under the port cockpit.

it would make no sense for a bolt to go through the transom, across the gap between the hull and the cockpit, and into the fuel locker. Is that what the previous owner did ?

 

[pclarksurf]

it would make no sense for a bolt to go through the transom, across the gap between the hull and the cockpit, and into the fuel locker. Is that what the previous owner did ?

To @Leeward Rail's point: pic for reference: old bolt patterns on the inside of the transom before filling and adding a plywood backing plate for the motor mount

 

[Gene Neill]

Not sure if I understand that correctly.
On our 87 new design, the outboard motor bracket bolts do not go into the cockpit.
The bolts should only go through the transom, and have a backing plate of plywood+fiberlass or "Starboard" etc. on the inside of the transom, which you access by crawling into the space under the port cockpit.

it would make no sense for a bolt to go through the transom, across the gap between the hull and the cockpit, and into the fuel locker. Is that what the previous owner did ?

Dang it man, you forced me (probably on purpose!) to go crawl into the Tunnel of Hell to get pics.

Looking aft at the two lower motor mount bolts:

Looking up into the void between fuel locker and transom:

 

[pclarksurf]

yikes-- big difference in the model years there.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Dang it man, you forced me (probably on purpose!) to go crawl into the Tunnel of Hell to get pics

I considered the idea myself but our 22 is buried in snow and it was -25 when I posted that reply.

That's the deal.

No reason a thin flat backing plate won't fit there. Would have to hold the nuts in position and tighten them from the outside.

And obviously also pot the holes with epoxy, if that area has wood coring.
Not sure if delamination in that area is an issue. I haven't seen it on our 87.

Pieces of angle would suck as a plate because they would take up space and impede access with a wrench.

 

[Leeward Rail]

old bolt patterns on the inside of the transom before filling and adding a plywood backing plate for the motor mount

Did you notice any coring there ?

 

[John Marrone]

Hey Gene,
We are on the same design element and page, here. Spent a good part of the day, yesterday removing and reinstalling the outboard lift assembly.
I am 6'3: #210 and squeezed into the "Tunnel of Hell" was no easy task. Might as well blindfolded me and I would have had a better advantage getting to those top two bolts.

Ended up using the largest 5/8" Flat washers in lieu of what was originally on the bolts and wrenched down via crisscross pattern each bolt to the point of not damaging the interior panel fiberglass. I have one bolt location that had initially crushed the interior panel fiberglass during manufacturing. Made an effort to not go any further with torquing the nut beyond its original failure point.

Regardless, appreciate the photos for others to ponder, but been there...done that and don't want to do it again.
Appreciate the sport to our community............Take Carew and safe sailing.

 

[pclarksurf]

Did you notice any coring there ?

Definitely different than what @Gene Neill has shown previously when he did his cockpit scuppers. There is definitely a sandwich effect between the outer and inner hull-- but not enough gap that those holds didn't fill perfectly with some thickened West Systems. I used a pretty broad surface of plywood for my backer just spread the load as much as reasonable. Did another small section for the lower Gudgeons--

 

[John Marrone]

The challenge with our 1987 Catalina Design is that the placement of the outboard lift system is encumbered by the Fuel Tank Cabinet leaving maybe 2" access where two of the up and down bolt locations are narrowly accessible by a normal human hand. Having said that, there is no room for an extended plate whether ss-steel, plywood or any other product and still have accessible bolt thread or access left to accomplish this procedure. (See Gene's Photos, above)

 

[Leeward Rail]

Having said that, there is no room for an extended plate whether ss-steel, plywood or any other product and still have accessible bolt thread or access left to accomplish this procedure.

The plate could easily be the thickness of the OEM existing washers. That is what was done on our 87 boat.

Even 4 larger washers would work to spread the load better than the original washers.

If you used a plate twice the thickness of the OEM washers, you would simply need to thread slightly longer bolts into the nuts...while holding the nut with a tool.... not thread the nuts on after the bolt is fully inserted.

Done that many times with other situations in very very tight spots.

If you wanted to get fancy, you could make a plate that has threaded holes. Thereby eliminating the nuts and 2 washers altogether.

 

[Leeward Rail]

Definitely different than what @Gene Neill has shown previously when he did his cockpit scuppers.

Yup. The scuppers go all the way into the cockpit, thereby needing a square chunk of plywood to cover the approx 1 inch gap between the transom and the cockpit/deck section. I am only partially surprised at the fact that that section isn't fully laminated with resin,.when you consider how they assembled the boat and the extra effort/cost to do that.

There is definitely a sandwich effect between the outer and inner hull

Makes sense. In other locations I have seen some small voids between the hull and hull liner that benefit from filling and re-drilling the holes, even if there is no wood coring to protect from rot.

 

[AaronD]

The plate could easily be the thickness of the OEM existing washers
...
If you wanted to get fancy, you could make a plate that has threaded holes.

If you have 2" total, you could use a sheet of 1/4" G10 (and still have room for nuts). It's strong stuff, will spread the load nicely, and won't ever rot. I used 1/4" G10 and CD's SS angle braces, but either would have been plenty.

If you want to thread the plate directly, as @Leeward Rail suggested, use 1/2". @thinwater did the calculations, and threads in G10 are good for about 1x bolt diameter. I.e., threads in 1/4" G10 will hold the full strength of a 1/4" SS bolt. For the 3/8" bolts on your motor mount, you'll want >= 3/8" G10, and 1/2" is readily available. Try McMaster-Carr or Jamestown (the latter carries a 6-pack of 12x12x1/4 that has served me well for many years of projects).

EDIT to link @thinwater's original spec sheet. The threading specs are at the bottom, but the entire document is helpful.

 

[Leeward Rail]

@thinwater did the calculations, and threads in G10 are good for about 1x bolt diameter. I.e., threads in G10 will hold the full strength of a 1/4" SS bolt.

Interesting. I would have never thought about doing that. Nice !

Was just thinking threading metal plate because that is what I am used to.

 

[AaronD]

I edited my post above to include a link to @thinwater's spec sheet. And now I'll add the reason you (ideally) shouldn't thread the backing plate directly.

When bedding hardware, the preferred method is to hold the bolt fixed (from outside the hull) and torque the nut (inside). That compresses the sealant equally around the hole (for a motor mount, you're probably using butyl tape or 4200). Twisting the bolt will tend to pull the sealant around and can break the seal. As always, see @Maine Sail's article (rereading that article is on your regular pre-season list, isn't it? ).

So the "thread-the-backing-plate" option is interesting, and might be the best you can do, but if you can get in there with a ratcheting combination wrench (or better yet, a crowfoot wrench on your torque wrench), normal nuts and washers are probably preferred. Creative use of masking tape on your wrench, or sometimes a blob of old butyl will help get the nut to a bolt you can't reach with your hand. That, or in my case, a wife or kid with smaller hands .

 

[Gene Neill]

It's just idle chatter at this point, since John got it done already ... but I couldn't live with threaded 1/4" G10. I believe, intellectually, it would work. But the dumb animal in me needs to see nuts and washers. And he's pretty much in charge of what I do.

Plus, there's the butyl thing. Excellent point.

 

[Leeward Rail]

But the dumb animal in me needs to see nuts and washers

A stainless plate would be my preference, if I did a threaded plate. For that reason. Would just "feel" better than threaded G10. And likely have metal laying around. Hehe

I seem to recall that the OEM gudgeons are in threaded metal plates. I need to go back and look at my old photos and see if they have backing nuts. Too many projects ago.

Creative use of masking tape on your wrench, or sometimes a blob of old butyl will help get the nut to a bolt you can't reach with your hand. That, or in my case, a wife or kid with smaller hands

Yup. Done that more times than I can count.
I've made my own tools. Screwed up my back crawling into nasty spaces.

That is why I firmly believe that every shop needs to mandatorily employ at least one child or little person for tasks in tight spaces. Think if them as PPE.

Twisting the bolt will tend to pull the sealant around and can break the seal.

VERY good point. I was clearly thinking with my land based mechanic brain, not my marine one.

Also reminds me I need to find a source for butyl.

 

[pclarksurf]

Also reminds me I need to find a source for butyl.

bummer: I had it here last time around, but appears they are no longer ***Buy Bed-It Butyl Tape*** by Compass Marine How To

but Sailrite has some-- I would trust (but verify) their sourcing : https://www.sailrite.com/Trimmable-...DmVupTM0bxvHbgTgIzgUyTaJNKV_Z9XBoCdVAQAvD_BwE

And perhaps the original from an alternative source: Compass Marine Bed It Butyl Tape — Original Marine Supplies