Hunter 216 spinnaker inside or outside gybe preference

[Hunter216]

I’m hoping someone can guide me on what their preferred method of gybing the asymmetric that Hunter provides with the 216 in a non racing minimal or solo crew scenario. I have an ATN sock so I could always utilize that but face the minor hurdle of getting the tube around to the other side to relaunch. I would rather fly the sail around if it’s feasible, and use the sock if things get messy. Would a gybulator added to the sail be worth the $ ?

 

[SG]

Assuming you don't have a masthead spinnaker halyard (i.e., your spinnaker halyard is "just" above the fractional rig's forestay), I'd say the "safe way" is outside. Using the sock works, if not very elegant or quick, it's "safer" (as long as you don't fall off or bang yourself on the foredeck ;^)))) ).

Our J/Boat has a sprit pole and I can get your asymmetric chute through the slot. In stronger winds (or choppy seas) the safe bet is to use the ATN sock and then bring it round.

 

[Hunter216]

SG. Thanks, the setup is stock Hunter other than the sock. The 216 is new to me so actively seeking knowledge. To clarify I will only launch or fly the sail in <10 knots unless I have adequate crew aboard. I agree that the outside gibe is logically safer and I would quote the following I found on a “racing” forum

“So what is the value of the outside Jibe in heavy air?

• It takes the sense of urgency out of the jibe, the main is jibed, the spinnaker flagged and then once the boat is well balanced the spinnaker is sheeted in.
• It avoids a broach – the inside jibe requires the spinnaker to be temporarily over sheeted which puts an immediate urgency on flattening the boat, bearing away, smoking the sheet out and very often dumping the vang – the outside jibe for the most part does not require those elements.
• It enables the crew to all stay aft and in racing position to maximize the draft of the rudder to maximize steerage and helps prevent the bow from submarining as crew are not needed to be forward pulling the spinnaker around like on an inside Jibe.
• It also helps lower the team’s collective blood pressure as in challenging conditions the adrenaline and exhilaration levels are high!

So what are the tradeoffs of outside Jibes?

• 1) You need longer spinnaker sheets which adds to the spaghetti Junction in the cockpit.
• 2) There is a performance trade off as the spinnaker flags in front of the boat and can take longer to fill and get going.
• 3) If you do not have a” Jibulator” baton on the sail, and also very often a baton on the end of the bowsprit and also do not take in the slack of the weather sheet there is a risk of trapping the lazy (soon to be loaded sheet) under the bow.”

So if I remove the “racing” value of the inside gybe and swap the heavy air with little or no crew factor from the equation in my thinking because my focus is to get the sail over without a mess with little or no help if I run into trouble outside gibes seems to be the logical “best choice” but I’m wise enough to know to ask for other opinions.

My concern is with point 3) above. I don’t have the gybulator or sprit batten they mention and I don’t like the idea of having a sheet accidentally trapped under the boat (trying to figure out how to recover from that???) or crawling out on the risky foredeck of the Hunter 216 to clear a line wrapped on the sprit drove me to ask advice from people who have sailed this setup and learned what NOT to do.

I doubt I’ll be happy always dousing with the sock and will experiment as I go.

 

[Jackdaw]

Adding a jibeulator to an Asym is an easy homemade task. Get a piece of soft fkexable plastic, and cut it into the shape of a ruler. Getting the right plastic is key, not too soft not too rigid. Drill some holes in one half and sew (with waxed sail thread) it near the tack at a 45 degree angle to the luff.

 

[SG]

The other consideration in light winds (say, 4 knots, true wind) is that the apparent wind is pretty low.

Remember that when you are going down wind, your apparent wind is reduced from true wind by virtue of the velocity of the boat (speed after telling into account the actual angle) More simply, if the true wind is 5 knots, and you are doing 3 knots acreoss the water, your apparent wind (which varies) is say 2-2.5 knots. So the spinnaker doesn’t have a lot of force to flutter it out in front of the boat.

Usually cruising boats tend to use the flutter the chute out (an outside gybe) in heavier winds.

A couple of suggestions:

Do NOT try to run with the A chute first. Use it on deep reaches where the apparent wind will be at 150 to 120 degrees aft.

You need to set the lazy sheet up for the gybe type before you execute the gybe. Otherwise you are likely to be FUBAR.

Putting up a chute is easy. The issue is always taking it down. The key is removing pressure on the sail by blanketing it behind the main so it doesn’t fight you and “fill itself”.

You need to avoid wrapping the chute around the forestay. When that happens you need to have sea room to blanket the sail enough to un-wrap it. You generally have to combine pulling down the sail — don’t just try to pull the sheet tighter to force it out, that will just lock-it in or knot it up.

The sail and boat “sees” the apparent wind. Dead aft TRUE wind speed of 15 knots while you’re going 5 knots feels like 10 knots. You can carry the chute into to rising winds and get seduced into a sense of “no big deal”. The key to taking it down: reduce pressure on the sail and don’t force it,


In lighter to moderate winds a chute really a lot of fun. While your boat can be less stable than a longer one, the size of your chute will allow you to get used to throwing it up and taking it down easily.

(Our 2,000 SF asymmetrical chute requires a lot more caution because the pressures involved are proportional to increases in the square of the wind speed. e.g., if you go from 4 to 12 knots of apparent wind, you have 9 times the force. 3 times really is 3^2=9 times the force. Because we have so much more area, a "mortal" just can't muscle the sail. You have to be smarter than strong. :^)))) In your case, you have more "forgiveness" to learn with. )

 

[David in Sandusky]

We love our asym, and use it a lot. As cruisers on the Great Lakes, our asym shifts 15% to 25% of our passage time from motor-sailing to sailing.

Our experience is that gybing is seldom needed when cruising on relatively open water since courses are relatively straight, or changing course around a land feature usually means dropping the sock and shifting to a close reach. The few times we have gybed the asym, (on the Detroit River for instance) we drop the chute and carry the sock and sheet around the forestay.

If I were single handing a lot I would add a second sheet, and do the outside gybe if needed.

 

[Hunter216]

Jackdaw
Thanks for the $ saving idea. Good winter project I think.
I'm not sure if you are aware of the size of the stock Doyle sail Hunter supplies and the 216 but do you have a suggestion as to how long the piece should stick out past the sail?

Do you know what the "baton" in point 3) above would be. I assume it's an extension on the end of the sprit to also catch the lazy sheet??? The 216 has an extendible sprit so not sure if this wouldn't just get in the way in my scenario or it might be handy if I submarined the bow and speared a fish!! :> The quote above if from a "racing forum so I'm guessing they are doing everything they can to avoid a problem.

I've read a number of your posts and it's obvious you are well versed in a wide range of sailing styles. I read one exchange you had about "fracking" and didn't really get it until today. I had my boat on the trailer so with the headsail furled and their sheets loose I stood on the deck and pulled down on the headstay and watched how the mast "flexed", somewhat simulating the force of an asym flying. I then tightened down the sheets as you suggested and repeated the process and the flex pattern changed...viola, it made sense!!!

 

[Hunter216]

SG and David
Thank you for your experienced wisdom. I sail on Lake Ontario near Kingston which is subject to lots of sailing and motor boat activity so although their is lots of water space available sometimes I'm forced to gybe more than I would want. I have sailed larger fixed keel boats with spinnakers and lots of small dinghy stuff so I appreciate your perspectives. I agree that flying bog kites is a lot of fun BUT you need to know what your doing or FUBAR happens very quickly and you start reaching for the rigging knife!!! The 216 is new to me so I was reaching out for fairly specific boat/sail experience so I didn't have to start from square one experimenting. After all that's what I think these forums are all about (sharing knowledge with like minded people)
Thanks again.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw
Thanks for the $ saving idea. Good winter project I think.
I'm not sure if you are aware of the size of the stock Doyle sail Hunter supplies and the 216 but do you have a suggestion as to how long the piece should stick out past the sail?

Do you know what the "baton" in point 3) above would be. I assume it's an extension on the end of the sprit to also catch the lazy sheet??? The 216 has an extendible sprit so not sure if this wouldn't just get in the way in my scenario or it might be handy if I submarined the bow and speared a fish!! :> The quote above if from a "racing forum so I'm guessing they are doing everything they can to avoid a problem.

I've read a number of your posts and it's obvious you are well versed in a wide range of sailing styles. I read one exchange you had about "fracking" and didn't really get it until today. I had my boat on the trailer so with the headsail furled and their sheets loose I stood on the deck and pulled down on the headstay and watched how the mast "flexed", somewhat simulating the force of an asym flying. I then tightened down the sheets as you suggested and repeated the process and the flex pattern changed...viola, it made sense!!!

On the Asym, only a few inch’s. 6 is fine.

A wand (thin fiberglass rod) secured to the end of the sprit, or up the forepeak on a non-sprit boat helps keep the lazy sheet under control.

 

[chuckwayne]

Have a sock too but I almost always just do an outside jibe (on the 356 too) it's a lot safer than sending someone up on the foredeck to mange the sock

 

[Hunter216]

Jackdaw, Chuckwayne
Thanks for the picture of the wand. I have some carbon tube battens from windsurfing sails I trashed doing jumps with race gear ($$$$ mistake) that I might experiment with. Also the confirmation that my intuition about approach is sound is making me more confident.
If I may pose a few more detail questions:

I appreciate that moving the bowsprit and the tack line (halyard?) in and out when reaching will logically affect the sail shape / boat handling but when I start the outside gybe is there a preferred position to set as I will have my hands full with sheets and tiller? IE should tack be close or far from the bow? I’ve never sailed with so much adjustability.

Do you prep the lazy sheet in any way? As I understand it the sheet is run from the clew to the rearmost sheeve which is set to freewheel and then forward to the one in the middle of the cockpit which is set in ratchet mode. To ensure the sheet can flow freely do you clear the line through the midship one towards the rear of the boat or just let it drag itself through both?

When/if you use the sock before the gybe do you use something like a boat pole to work the tube around the front of the forestay to relaunch? Don’t fancy going out on the 216 foredeck at all.

 

[David in Sandusky]

I don’t have a problem going to the bow of our h27 in low winds with the Admiral at the helm and waves 2 foot or less. I can see that your 216 might be less stable, and you could get bigger waves in light SW winds on the north shore.

Again, I would go to an outside gybe for single handing, even with our tiller pilot.

We chartered out of Kingston into the 1,000 Islands a while back. It’s a truly great sailing area! And I do understand the need to gybe more often there.

 

[Hunter216]

David
The foredeck of the 216 is quite exposed, no pulpit, no safety lines, no non-skid (although I’m thinking of adding some tape in a few places) so fairly large potential to slip overboard etc. To be fair it is a daysailer not a cruiser and I think the asym was a bit of an afterthought so there wasn’t a requirement to go forward in the original design. More of a get a bunch of people out on the water with you boat. Actually the huge cockpit is one of the primary reasons I changed from our pocket cruiser. However there are lots of times there is no one available but I still want to sail. I had our other boat a C&C 24 set up with an ATN tacker (so no pole required) and a sock so I could easily fly my symmetric spin by myself. With the tacker the spin was more like a poorly designed asym but it got the job done in the conditions I used it in. I am used to outside gybe as that was the only feasible “fly the sail around” option with the tacker cupped over the furled headsail.

With the tiller handle between my knees I would just sheet in the main some to expose the spin more, let the loaded sheet out so the clew drifts out, turn the boat “under” the flagging sail, jibe the main, let the main out again if needed to blanket the spin so it doesn’t load up as abruptly, sheet in and gybe complete. Easy after a few “use the sock events!!!

I actually purchased the boat from a family who sailed it near Turkey Point on the north shore of Erie so maybe the two boats have seen each other. :>

 

[Jackdaw]

@Hunter216 ,

You are on the right rack. On a sprit/prod, boat you should ALWAYS inside jibe in less than 12 knots. Timing is key, and also some tips. Before you go out, mark both spinsheets at a place in the cockpit so when secured, the clew of the sail would be about 1/2 way between the bow and the end of the pole. Then the cadence is:

Turn to a deep reach.
Secure the lazy sheet at that mark, or hold it there if there is 3 on board
Start turning down, then blow the active spin sheet
As the boat is now close to DDW, the kite will look like a taco in front of the boat, start pulling the new sheet in like CRAZY
Drive does NOT turn past DDW until the majority of the spin is on the new side
Jibe the main. Throw it over in one go.
Driver DOES NOT overturn! Get on your new angle and allow the kite to fill.

Other tip:
No hardware on the spin sheets. Worst to best:
Shackles. No!
Tie them on
Soft shackles on spliced eyes
Short lead of dyneema cow-hitched to sheet eye. Winning!

The goal is light and snag-free around the forestay.

As your timing gets better you will do inside almost all the time. On the J/70 and Fareast 28r we do them into the 20s.

 

[Hunter216]

Jackdaw
Thanks for the step by step on inside process. Great to visualize BEFORE executing and on the days when there are enough hands aboard to make it work I agree it’s a more efficient keep the boat moving quickly approach. When I solo I’m more in the survival mindset and/or don’t want to spend fun sailing time dealing with a snarled mess I’ve created. Mastering both and knowing when best to use them is the key.
You obviously have a strong racing background. Ever sailed pro?

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw
Thanks for the step by step on inside process. Great to visualize BEFORE executing and on the days when there are enough hands aboard to make it work I agree it’s a more efficient keep the boat moving quickly approach. When I solo I’m more in the survival mindset and/or don’t want to spend fun sailing time dealing with a snarled mess I’ve created. Mastering both and knowing when best to use them is the key.
You obviously have a strong racing background. Ever sailed pro?

Solid maneuvers are really the key to good racing (and sailing). On all of boats I sail regularly, we develop a 'playbook', outlining each maneuver as a separate cadence (a sequence of timed steps) for each possible number of crewmembers (3-5) on board. When we figure out something better, we update the playbook.

As you probably guess now, the cadence is different for different crew sizes.

I'm not a pro but I do coach. As I want to maintain my ISAF Group 1 classification, I make sure not to accept payment for the act of coaching, but I'm more than OK to accept flights, room and board.

 

[chuckwayne]

What Jackdaw said.... Outside isn't too different, just make sure the lazy sheet is led outside. I don't change the guy setting for the jibe. I think the outside is a little easier when you're solo, but that's a personal choice. On the 356 I generally don't use the sock to contain the chute in a jibe - not necessary and it takes time to pull down and up (the sock's about 45 feet long). When I do, it's kid of a pain to throw around the forestay because the middle tends to get stuck. Since I'm not racing anymore and don't always sail with the same crew, I tend to focus on safe and smooth even if it means a slower jibe.

 

[Hunter216]

Chuckwayne
That is a BIG chute on your 356.
Specific to your 216 do you run your adjustable pole all the way extended and how far off the end of that spar do you set the tack? Do you bother to adjust these factors on any point of sail or just set it so the tack is in the best place and forget it until it’s time to bring it down?

 

[chuckwayne]

you know the whomper in Wind? The standard chute for the 356 is about 800 sq.ft. Mine is 1300.... I can use the big chute because I also fly an 850 sq. ft. laminate code 0 when the wind picks up.
on the 216 I fully extend the sprit and adjust the tackline to get the luff shape I want - tight when reaching and looser - more rounded - downwind

 

[Hunter216]

Wind... love that movie!!!
So on the 216 I would see myself reaching and gybing most of the time rather than trying to run true downwind unless boat traffic demanded it. I also can’t see myself single handed having the time to adjust either sprit or tack line during the gybe so all the way out and tight it is. It would also seem logical that if the tack was close to the end of the sprit there would be less chance of a wrap.
I’m really liking the 216, light air yesterday with a lot of shifts. I was easily slipping upwind of the big guys as I can tack sooooo much faster and downwind (even without the asym up) it also held its own. Like a giant “comfortable” laser.