Collision today

jviss

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Monterey385 said:
I start a gentle turn to starboard (maybe 10 degrees) at 2 minutes out, bring it harder at 1 minute out (maybe 20-30 degrees),
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....

I get your drift, but strictly speaking not in compliance with the colregs. Rule 8 states, in part:
(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.​
 
Will Gilmore

Will Gilmore

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Oct 19, 2017
7,841
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Monterey385 said:
technically I am not in compliance with ColRegs if I break the "Stand On" too soon,
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I could be wrong here, but it seems to me, that if there is no collision or conflict, you are in compliance with the Colregs no matter what you did or are doing.
:)
Just a personal observation based on the legal stuff we've been reading. Avoiding a collision is the ultimate goal here.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
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Monterey385

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May 28, 2015
280
Catalina 385 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
SG said:
By the way, turning a J105 into a powerboat coming at you at 30 knots is nice to discuss in theory... :^)))
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I had to think about this one for awhile … on the surface it makes sense that it would be a tough call …

but now I'm not so sure … because in a crossing situation the powerboat isn't actually heading straight at you until the last few seconds … in reality they would appear to be heading for a point ahead of you (the CPA). Travelling at 50 ft per second they are a good 1500 feet out at 30 seconds or 300 yards (picture three football fields) … If you point your bow at their stern at that point I think it would require about a 60 degree turn to starboard and it would feel like you are going behind them not at them.

Since this might be tough to execute under sail only, that is where turning on the engine comes into play. I have executed the key on, hard right, full throttle maneuver once before and it was executed in about 3-5 seconds. It has the added value of swinging the stern which actually slows or stops forward movement and would similar to throwing it in full reverse for stopping forward momentum.
 
jviss

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
justsomeguy said:
Who'd a thunk they'd stick an "if" in there? :rolleyes: :biggrin:
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If you want to nit-pic, or just be a contrarian, go ahead. It's really just argument, and not helpful. Do you have a point, other than to disagree with me?

What the entire rule means is that unless it would result in further danger, make bold course changes!

Making a succession of small course changes is a bad idea, because it is hard to detect from the other vessel.
 
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Monterey385

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May 28, 2015
280
Catalina 385 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
jviss said:
If you want to nit-pic, or just be a contrarian, go ahead. It's really just argument, and not helpful. Do you have a point, other than to disagree with me?

What the entire rule means is that unless it would result in further danger, make bold course changes!

Making a succession of small course changes is a bad idea, because it is hard to detect from the other vessel.
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Okay, I'm not nit-picking but instead learning … under ColRegs it would seem to me there is a gradient intended from "Stand On" to "Avoid Collision". Specifically in a crossing situation where a 10 degree turn would put you behind the crossing vessel at CPA (in this case assume you are the "Stand On" vessel), wouldn't that be deemed to be acceptable since it is eliminating the crossing situation altogether even though it may not be an obvious turn?

In this example, I am assuming two vessels are within 2 minutes of intersecting and the give way vessel is not apparently adjusting course in either direction. I am also assuming a congested recreational / commercial waterway (such as Sandy Hook Bay or Lower NY Bay) where a boater might have to contend with these types of issues several times an hour.

I should add that I understand the logic behind the bold course changes (they are obvious to the other vessel and reduce the risk of conflicting course changes). That said they can also become impractical in congested waters (especially with Jet Skiers jumping wakes behind large wake powerboats, etc.).

Thoughts?
 
jviss

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,089
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
( @Monterey385 , my "nit-picking" comment wasn't directed towards you.)
If you can make a bold course change without endangering yourself or other vessels, for example by running aground or creating a collision chance with another vessel, then you should do so. What's "bold?" I think something 30º plus is bold enough. I was taught hands-on by an experienced sailor that nudging the boat over gradually can be imperceptible by a fast approaching boat - it may just look like an angle change due to the closing distance.
 
CaptKimble

CaptKimble

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Jul 29, 2017
169
Catalina 380 Los Angeles
I am having a hard time following all these arguments. I always make an obvious turn to starboard or port when I observe a powerboat heading in my direction and wait for it.....If still on a collision course I make a further turn...wait for it....HAILING IDIOT ON CH 16.....do you see me?...no answer....fire up the iron genny and find a way out of the path of the martini barge moving along without watching
 
L

Lubber No More!

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Jul 11, 2018
3
Catalina 42 Herrington Harbour Marina
Monterey385 said:
Okay, I'm not nit-picking but instead learning … under ColRegs it would seem to me there is a gradient intended from "Stand On" to "Avoid Collision". Specifically in a crossing situation where a 10 degree turn would put you behind the crossing vessel at CPA (in this case assume you are the "Stand On" vessel), wouldn't that be deemed to be acceptable since it is eliminating the crossing situation altogether even though it may not be an obvious turn?

In this example, I am assuming two vessels are within 2 minutes of intersecting and the give way vessel is not apparently adjusting course in either direction. I am also assuming a congested recreational / commercial waterway (such as Sandy Hook Bay or Lower NY Bay) where a boater might have to contend with these types of issues several times an hour.

I should add that I understand the logic behind the bold course changes (they are obvious to the other vessel and reduce the risk of conflicting course changes). That said they can also become impractical in congested waters (especially with Jet Skiers jumping wakes behind large wake powerboats, etc.).

Thoughts?
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Local knowledge also helps. In the area of the Chesapeake where this happened you are well advised to change course if you see one of these charter boats, or a crab boat, coming across your bow. None of them have AIS and they move in straight lines at speed. Just not worth it to get in too close. Yes, it can be an unwelcome nuisance but ultimately they're out there trying to earn a living and I'm just out there trying to see how little I can think of work, so I turn a few degrees and lose maybe 5 minutes in a multi-hour trip.
 
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Ron20324

Ron20324

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Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Sunday I wove my way through the fishing fleet at the same place this pile-up happened in the shoals off Thomas Point Park.. I was extra sharp, and giving way to everyone- even the swimming seagulls!

This morning's (Monday) Annapolis Capital news paper has an interview with the skipper of the J105 time-share boat. Skipper says he was not to blame, but goes on to say, "Conditions were clear." He said he "saw the power boat 'way off in the distance", and knew they were probably on a collision course- he stayed his course; All of a sudden the (fishing) boat was on top of us". (((I'd say that was a dumb statement to make public. He probably just lost his case.)))

Worthy of note is that the sailboat was heeling to STARBOARD- not PORT as the OP picture shows. Skipper says that if boat had been heeling to PORT, they speculate they would have been cut in half and sunk. 74 year-old Skipper has sailed 20 years.

And that's the the nut with the newshell. And soon I'm off to Bacons for Aqua 25s.
 
Davidasailor26

Davidasailor26

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May 17, 2004
5,461
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
Ron20324 said:
"Conditions were clear." He said he "saw the power boat 'way off in the distance", and knew they were probably on a collision course- he stayed his course; All of a sudden the (fishing) boat was on top of us". (((I'd say that was a dumb statement to make public. He probably just lost his case.)))
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Concur, I wouldn't have said that in public. Don't know if there's anything else he said that the paper didn't quote. The article did say he started "waving at the guy, yelling". If he really did percieve a collision course and didn't take evasive action at any time, that's not great for him. It will be interesting to see how blame is apportioned if that's the case. I'd imagine still majority blame to the powerboat, but how much?
 
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Monterey385

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May 28, 2015
280
Catalina 385 Atlantic Highlands, NJ
My money has now moved from 80 (Powerboat) / 20 (Sailboat) to more like 60/40.

Like @Ron20324, I too was at a heightened state of vigilance this weekend … but … I have to fess up … I messed up.

I was under power crossing Sandy Hook Bay and had a very large motor yacht approaching my starboard side amidships … having gone through all of the discussions on this thread I was dutifully standing on. The motor yacht kept waving for me to go and I joked with my wife that I was going the fastest 7 knots that I could. The motor yacht slowed down, waved me across and passed my stern.

A moment later it occurred to me that I was an idiot … I was the give-way vessel and should have adjusted course to cross behind him. It was a rookie mistake and I am thankful that he was kind enough to accommodate me.

My wife indicated she was going to put some tape on the helm to remind me next time.

So … FWIW … there are kind and respectful skippers of large motor yachts out there …
 
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