Bad day in a J/24

Will Gilmore · May 18, 2018

Harsh opinions, yes, but not harsh words. This has been a great discussion and opinion is the fodder. There is a lot being learned here. And I'll use a phrase that I usually assume is a given, "in my opinion."

- Will (Dragonfly)

JimInPB · May 18, 2018

John Tubb said:
What about droping the mast or heaving to?

Getting the mast down fast enough in those conditions without it free falling ...is a task that I don't think I could have pulled off, even if I had 2 of my best crew working with me. Maybe someone else could have pulled that off, but I would have been outside my talent envelope on that one.

Heaving to might have been a good option if it were not for that stiff current.

JimInPB · May 18, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
...Are you saying that if the boat had been pinned under the bridge and swamped, having an anchor in the water would make it worse? 'Cause, that doesn't sounds possible. ...

I know of a few rare situations where an anchor made things worse. In extreme weather, with a boat that was marginally buoyant, an anchor attached to a bow cleat on top of the bow can sometimes pull the bow under. I don't believe that was the case with a J-24 in those conditions, but it can & has happened. I know of one case that involved a neighbor of mine, where the anchor line was cut to keep the boat afloat. That boat & crew were in deep trouble that day.

JimInPB · May 18, 2018

Jackdaw said:
Um, J/24 masts are keel stepped.

Right. Dropping that stick is not a 2-minute job, which is kind of what I said in the post that you replied to. I'm not seeing what your point is.

J-24 guys trailer to regattas all the time, which involves dropping/raising the stick. It's a common thing for me to see 20 or 40 guys do it in a single day before & after a race like the mid winter nationals, but it ain't a quick & easy thing that I see guys doing in a hurry. Maybe someone out there knows how to do it fast, but I haven't seen it yet.

JRacer · May 18, 2018

We have done it on my old J while waiting in line for the crane to pull out at regattas when we have been deep in line and have a long tow ahead of us so we could be road ready when dropped on the trailer. Takes about 4 guys, in a harbor with flat water, little wind, tied to the dock and steel balls. Not a recommended procedure but can be done in the right conditions. A failure either breaks off the bottom of the stick or can openers the deck. Have stepped it that way too. Think Iwo Jima.

Brian S · Jul 10, 2018

jwing said:
I'm missing something here. I see two boats passing under the bridge with foresails deployed. One foresail is multi-colored and one is red. Then, I see the boat that crashed into the bridge has a doused foresail on the deck, but the sail is white.

Jwing, they probably drop the jib while the chute is up. Probably had enough time to pull down the spinnaker and stuff it below decks, but not enough time to then hoist the jib. As narrow as that was, even if the jib were up (for example, Flying Scots typically sail with the jib up while the spinnaker is up, because it's kinda a PITA to lower the jib,) that would have been very difficult wind to make any kind of headway. Probably wouldn't have been able to claw out of there.

Brian S · Jul 10, 2018

I know one J/24. He had some kind of crane that he set up on the boat to lift the mast up and unstep at the end of the season. He was very good at haul out, and unstepping the mast mostly unassisted, but there's no way someone's going to drop a J/24 stick on the water, in 35 knots of wind.

rgranger · Jul 10, 2018

jon hansen said:
that is a video of extremely flawed seamanship. ..

I don't see how you can make an assessment with what was shown in that video.

rgranger · Jul 10, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
..Being quick to realize it is too late and just as quick on the anchor, anchor, anchor.- Will (Dragonfly)

I keep an anchor at the ready on my stern rail. The rode sits coiled and bungeed to the fishing rod holder you see near my port stern seat and runs forward and is secured to the bow eye. There is also 5' of chain on the end of my anchor at the bottom of that black pipe you see. I use it often when I'm single handing as I enter a cove, I can toss the anchor over the stern, then start dropping my sails as the anchor catches and boat rounds up into the wind.

dlochner · Jul 10, 2018

rgranger said:
I keep an anchor at the ready on my stern rail. The rode sits coiled and bungeed to the fishing rod holder you see near my port stern seat and runs forward and is secured to the bow eye. There is also 5' of chain on the end of my anchor at the bottom of that black pipe you see. I use it often when I'm single handing as I enter a cove, I can toss the anchor over the stern, then start dropping my sails as the anchor catches and boat rounds up into the wind.
View attachment 153520

This works well for cruising, but a dedicated J24 racer would never allow so much extra weight.

jon hansen · Jul 10, 2018

rgranger, you ask a fair question so i'll give you my opinion. very simply, bridges can create very flukey winds and usually do. canals between two different bodies of water can create unpredicted currents and often do. so what is my issue as seen in that video. if you watch the video from the south side of bridge you will see that the boat is the last through the bridge and the bridge closes right behind him. the bridge span closed blocked all the wind propelling the boat. anyone sailing around bridges will understand such. if you want to sail through a bridge you need to have a means to create way at all times. the closed bridge stopped that. the prudent sailor knows this before trying this stunt. seamanship to me means that you are prepared to deal with a given situation.

bridges, especially that one, are known for flukey winds. canals are unpredictable too, especially that one. good seamanship dictates a backup plan. in the video that sailor had no backup plan while doing a stunt in a dangerous location. all sailors doing that stunt should have the engine running while showing off.
i sail through bridges daily. my engine is on just in case.
he should have known he would loose way. he should have been in control. had he had his engine on he might have been able to deal with the new wind blast.
so what's my lesson for the sailors on this thread. bridges are very dangerous. use extra caution. he should have known this. having not been prepared he put his crew in danger.

very poor seamanship in my opinion. his poor skills are right there on video.
my $0.02

rgranger · Jul 10, 2018

dlochner said:
This works well for cruising, but a dedicated J24 racer would never allow so much extra weight.

Agreed... I'm a cruiser and gunkholer at heart.

jon hansen · Jul 10, 2018

when i cruise on aeolus my anchor rides in a bracket on top of the cabin top. my anchor rode is coiled and hung in a cockpit locker. i can, even in heavy weather, deploy my anchor inside 60 seconds. when racing aeolus i do not want the weight on top and i do not want the anchor snagging the many lines used to race an old cca yawl. BUT, my anchor is placed deep in the hull such that i can still deploy it within 60 seconds. i have such a place to put it. the safety factor does not change just because i'm racing. racing to me does not mean i'm allowed poor seamanship.
this is my opinion, it's worth what you've paid for it.

jon hansen · Jul 10, 2018

to be honest, i carry no anchor on the Ascow. i'll just throw some of the crew over to slow the boat.

that's a joke

Will Gilmore · Jul 10, 2018

jon hansen said:
that's a joke

Thanks for pointing that out. I was feeling like, "if he asks me to crew for him, I have chickens to take care, but thanks for the offer. "

dlochner said:
This works well for cruising, but a dedicated J24 racer would never allow so much extra weight.

Not being familiar with racing rules, are you saying anchors are optional? I would have thought standard coast guard recommended equipment would always be required by a racing club.
I always had a small Danforth in my pram, of course, I didn't race and I don't think it was actually required for a pram. It was so long ago.

- Will (Dragonfly)

dlochner · Jul 11, 2018

Will Gilmore said:
Not being familiar with racing rules, are you saying anchors are optional? I would have thought standard coast guard recommended equipment would always be required by a racing club.
I always had a small Danforth in my pram, of course, I didn't race and I don't think it was actually required for a pram. It was so long ago.

Yes, the standard USCG equipment is required, although I'm not sure that every racer carries them. Also, I could be mistaken, however, I don't believe the USCG requires an anchor.

As for carrying an anchor, outboard and other stuff, each racing class has its own rules. Some are pretty specific about the size and type. I was always crew on J24s so I let the skipper worry about such things as anchors and required equipment. On my Flying Scot there is a requirement to carry a small (5#?) danforth style anchor and rode.

Will Gilmore · Jul 11, 2018

dlochner said:
I could be mistaken, however, I don't believe the USCG requires an anchor.

You are right, the USCG doesn't require an anchor. They do, however suggest an anchor for prevention from going aground in case of power loss and lay out the standard 5:1 - 7:1 scope for effective anchoring.
I guess I just think anchors are that important.

- Will (Dragonfly)

JRacer · Jul 11, 2018

J/24 Class Rules require an anchor, with or without chain that must weigh between 6 and 9 kg