We used to do the same thing. Saved the hassle of installing and removing the motor, gave us a chance to practice on the way out, and to check that the spinnaker sheets were run correctly and packed correctly. I don't fault the crew for doing that. However, we didn't have to sail under a drawbridge or out a narrow channel. That's where I find fault with the crew, going out a narrow channel under sail alone. There were no escape routes if something went awry, which it did. The outcome would probably have been different if the motor was in the water and running from the time the bridge opened until they reached the lake.
Bad day in a J/24
- Thread starter Jackdaw
- Start date
Glad to see that everyone on board came away unscathed, which is a real good thing, what I find curious is there were no crew members wearing gear made to survive water that I am sure is below 50*F, given the very short duration for hypothermia to set in, this really surprises me.
I know many but not all of the racers here on Lake Huron this time of year wear suits designed for cold water survival.
I know many but not all of the racers here on Lake Huron this time of year wear suits designed for cold water survival.
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This gave me pause as well, but of course in 100% perfect hindsight where we are all experts. I've been through that channel dozens of times. Its cool and fun to sail through, but there are very few solid Plan-Bs. So depending on conditions I'll motor, motor-sail, or sail. I've gone thru under kite as well. But only in perfect conditions and timing. It actually looked close to that, right up until the squall hit.
The motor is another issue. If you race a J24 you have to have a motor, but its size and weight factor. When racing you take it off the transom and lock it down near the keel. So you want a light one. Most of them will power the boat when the fan shuts off, but not in conditions they encountered in that channel. With the wind, current and waves I bet 90% of OB-driven boats here would have suffered the same fate.
Are you suggesting there should be a law? Maybe boats above a certain size should be required to have a motor? I never put a motor on my hobie 18, but I will put one on my Mariner 19. However, I don't feel like I should have to. It is a good idea, though.
- Will (Dragonfly)
i like a lot of jackdaw's perspective. most often sailing through to the lake is just fine. hind site is easy.
we all can sail through on most days, sure. a skilled captain will know that the wind around huge bridges can be and usually very flukey. so any captain will understand that sailing a j24 through the duluth entrance is like taking a 2 wheeler down a 4wheel trail. prolly be ok but keep your eyes open and stop before trouble. like do not drive into the huge mud bog.
we all can sail through on most days, sure. a skilled captain will know that the wind around huge bridges can be and usually very flukey. so any captain will understand that sailing a j24 through the duluth entrance is like taking a 2 wheeler down a 4wheel trail. prolly be ok but keep your eyes open and stop before trouble. like do not drive into the huge mud bog.
what do we see from the 2 videos. he had very little time. however. we see in the video that he made bad choices. and so we can learn. wind hits, spinnakar down. then we see that he did not have way. he was not able to control the boat. losing way is like an airplane stalling the wings. never a good thing. we do see his main up and flogging. not good. a flogging sail has huge drag. he and his crew sould be fighting to make way, they are not. i see in the video he could have trimmed the main and made way right to the end.
the other big mistake this captain made is not grabbing onto the concrete side of the entrance brake wall. yes it looks and is nasty. any good captain knows that a side smear to the hull is way less damage than a head on collision.
so there is the lesson. 1. do not loose way 2. a smear is way better than a head on. 3. all big bridges cause fluky winds. extra care for a plan B is always needed.
the other big mistake this captain made is not grabbing onto the concrete side of the entrance brake wall. yes it looks and is nasty. any good captain knows that a side smear to the hull is way less damage than a head on collision.
so there is the lesson. 1. do not loose way 2. a smear is way better than a head on. 3. all big bridges cause fluky winds. extra care for a plan B is always needed.
baw humbug : to ALL you motorsailors that think you need need a engine to dock a sailing vessels. hey, i'm sorry you have such a low sailing skill set. keep practicing , you'll learn.
So forgive my naivety on this subject but it appears that the captain did all he could do in the time given. Even the time lapse only shows only about 4 min from the time he passes under the bridge until he contacts it. However my question is what was the responsibility of the bridge operator? The bridge is fully lowered and clearly the boats were not a reasonably safe distance from it when it started moving again.
Now I have never sailed under the bridge but I have watched from the shoreline enough times to know that this crew was not even 1/2 way down the channel and the bridge is fully closed. When a Laker is approaching the channel the bridge is open long before the vessel enters the channel and remains open until they have started their turn in the bay. I dont think a pleasure craft needs quite that about of time but certainly a reasonable time to be clear of the bridge.
Doing the math in my head the bridge takes just over a minute to close from the height it was at and so the boat would not have been more than 100 yrs or so in front of it when it closed fully. This to me seems like a complacency on the bridge operators part assuming that nothing would go wrong as these boats routinely travel this route. Not to mention when the operator noticed the vessel was in trouble he had not even attempted to begin the raising process as none of the warning bells, lights, etc were sounding at the point of impact. Am I wrong here to see a negligence on the operators part? Don't all parties bear some responsibility in the event of a collision?
Now I have never sailed under the bridge but I have watched from the shoreline enough times to know that this crew was not even 1/2 way down the channel and the bridge is fully closed. When a Laker is approaching the channel the bridge is open long before the vessel enters the channel and remains open until they have started their turn in the bay. I dont think a pleasure craft needs quite that about of time but certainly a reasonable time to be clear of the bridge.
Doing the math in my head the bridge takes just over a minute to close from the height it was at and so the boat would not have been more than 100 yrs or so in front of it when it closed fully. This to me seems like a complacency on the bridge operators part assuming that nothing would go wrong as these boats routinely travel this route. Not to mention when the operator noticed the vessel was in trouble he had not even attempted to begin the raising process as none of the warning bells, lights, etc were sounding at the point of impact. Am I wrong here to see a negligence on the operators part? Don't all parties bear some responsibility in the event of a collision?
i grew up in a sailing yacht club. not a motorsailing yacht club. big dragon fleet. no engines. dad's 38 alden sailed in and out allot. half the boats had no engine.
A lot of the J-24 guys down by me carry tools that are capable of cutting the rig loose if need be. I don't know if it is a requirement from the racing authority or not, but I have seen small bolt cutters on several of the local J-boats.
That aside, I'm a pretty big fan of always keeping an anchor handy, especially when operating in a space restricted area. Sometimes unexpected things do happen & sometimes it is handy to have the option to anchor right the F now, if you need to. I'm not sure if it would have saved those guys from loosing their mast or not, but it might have.
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Back in the 80's, it was common for me to sail a Wianno Sr. in Edgartown during race week. When I came into Edgartown harbor one day, the Kennedy kid with the plastic leg was single handing Victura into a slip. I watched that one-legged kid pull a U-turn in that slip, without touching a single timber on the docks. It was the coolest thing to watch. I didn't think that maneuver was possible. The slip was no more than 3 feet wider than the boat was long, & probably less than that. Those boats never had any provisions to mount a motor, so he was most certainly under sail only. Unlike the secret service clowns that were sometimes also on that boat, that guy really knew how to handle himself.
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I'm missing something here. I see two boats passing under the bridge with foresails deployed. One foresail is multi-colored and one is red. Then, I see the boat that crashed into the bridge has a doused foresail on the deck, but the sail is white.
Nope. Just use good judgement. He was in a place where he needed a plan b and didn’t have one.
Someone pushed the panic button here. Not going to say who, but let's try to maintain civility. Capisce? Of course you do. Now, I going back to my eye splicing with the spice girls. 
The Genesee River in Rochester is a pip like that with one exception, that being the bridge leaves no way out when things go wrong. My Oday 22 with outboard couldn't motor against the waves on bouncy days. I generally sailed out under such conditions but always had the option of turning around and running back up the river under sail. It is always beneficial to examine the coulda, woulda, shoulda options just in case we encounter some situation unforseen. Helped me two years ago when the weather was supposed to remain pleasant but a pop up rotating thunderstorm had other plans. Getting ready for the 69 knot downdraft was acquired from others whose experiences dictated a course of action that served me and the crew well. Glad they made it and have a helluva story to tell that will exceed bragging rights and plastic trophies from a race at the YC.
IMO it's a case of "the impervious horrors of a leeward shore" (or leeward bridge, in this case). (with apologies to Patrick O'Brian and William Falconer)
Looks to me like given the conditions that developed very rapidly there was little they could have done. They had minutes only and that channel is quite narrow. I mean with the luxury of hindsight and time, with disaster not imminent and no consequences for being wrong, it's easy enough to decide exactly what they should have done, but before the fact when you're in the situation as it evolves it's not so easy to hit on and execute the "correct" solution (if one even exists).
I disagree with the idea that it was poor seamanship to be at that spot at that time. Nowadays we have access to excellent weather forecasts, it's true, but nevertheless situations can develop which were not reasonably foreseeable. If every remote possibility that could conceivably happen were to keep us at the dock, why then we'd never go sailing. Clearly the forecast was not dire enough to keep that fleet in harbor for the day.
Looks to me like given the conditions that developed very rapidly there was little they could have done. They had minutes only and that channel is quite narrow. I mean with the luxury of hindsight and time, with disaster not imminent and no consequences for being wrong, it's easy enough to decide exactly what they should have done, but before the fact when you're in the situation as it evolves it's not so easy to hit on and execute the "correct" solution (if one even exists).
I disagree with the idea that it was poor seamanship to be at that spot at that time. Nowadays we have access to excellent weather forecasts, it's true, but nevertheless situations can develop which were not reasonably foreseeable. If every remote possibility that could conceivably happen were to keep us at the dock, why then we'd never go sailing. Clearly the forecast was not dire enough to keep that fleet in harbor for the day.
Some pretty harsh opinions here. I figure "there but for the grace of God...." I figure I learned something, but not judging anyone, and glad all on board are safe...