Configuring new boom vang - seeking advice

[Scott T-Bird]

Last year I sailed without a boom vang because I couldn't decide how to set up a new one after my fiddle blocks blew up at the end of the season before. I'm still faced with this quandary because there seems to so many options, but little advise that helps me ... so I turn to the gurus on SBO! I'll bet that I get a perplexing variety of opinions, but let's see how it goes!
My boat is a small cruiser 27' that I like to set up for performance and safety, but I don't race at this time. Expense does not usually limit my preference.
I'm considering:
a) 8 to 1 purchase with cascaded fiddle blocks and 1 control line led aft to the cockpit.
b) 8 to 1 purchase as above with 2 control lines led aft to cockpit. The line on stbd side would come from the cascading block for low purchase - high throw and the line on port side would come from the fiddle blocks for high purchase - low throw.
c) 5:1 purchase with triple/double block combination with a continuous control line led aft on both port and stbd - both with the same high purchase - low throw capability.
d) 10:1 purchase as in (c) with a cascading block. This would give me the ability to have the stbd control line with low purchase - high throw and the port control line with high purchase - low throw.
I'm pretty certain that 8:1 is the minimum purchase that I want. I'm not certain how useful the high throw / low throw option will be.

I have been reading about the low p - high t / high p - low t functions for both vangs and mainsheet controls. I could not find any reference to the size of boats where this capability is useful. I'm wondering how this function applies to a small keelboat such as mine. I consider that the ability to "blow" the vang with low purchase - high throw control line might be a safety feature. I could also be radically over-thinking this issue . But I will have the capability of leading a total of 12 lines aft, and that gives me the option to use 2 control lines for the vang if I want to.

 

[dlochner]

Keep it simple. With 12 lines lead aft it can be confusing, "release the blue line" "No, not the white line with blue tracers, the blue line with white tracers" etc. etc.

One line that is easily identifiable would probably be best. In a single purchase system the vang should reduce faster than in a cascading system. Also with the cascading system it will be necessary to manage the 2 parts. It is easy to get on part of the system 2 blocked and while the other part is not.

You have a fairly small boat a 5:1 or 6:1 purchase should be adequate. I only have a 6:1 purchase on my 36 ft boat.

 

[Will Gilmore]

I could also be radically over-thinking this issue . But I will have the capability of leading a total of 12 lines aft,

Keep it simple. Vangs are pretty straight forward. 12 lines is a lot. You are single handing, right?

Will (Dragonfly)

 

[Will Gilmore]

Ha ha ha! If dlochner and I typed "Keep it simple" at the same time, you should give the thought some consideration.

- Will (Dragonfly)

 

[agprice22]

For 26-27 ft. I would do a nice 4:1 fiddle without lines led aft. You set it downwind which is easily done. Look at Schaeffer for some good rigs, ready made.

 

[Ted]

On my last boat, a C&C 29, I had a 16:1 ratio boom vang. It was very easy to operate, even upwind on days with high wind speeds. A 12:1 cascade with a single control line should be fine for your boat. No need to provide low and high purchase power on a vang for a 27 foot boat but they are great for the main sheet. The high purchase power will make it easy to release the vang even when it' s heavily loaded.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Well, I've already said that I wasn't satisfied with 4:1. I felt like it was necessary to use the winch, and that is what I want to avoid. I want the vang to be strictly hand load. Also, control lines will be easy to identify, they will be led to cam cleats. I have 4 halyards (2 head sails, main, spin), 2 toppings, 2 reef lines, all leading to clutches. They would be largely coiled and easily distinguished from sail control lines. 1 outhaul, 2 vang lines and Cunningham are easily distinguished by being on cleats. Sheets and other lines are not on the cabin top, so I think that confusion is already managed! I think that the number of lines single handing is not an issue. I agree that if I want Sue to blow the vang or merely adjust it, she will need to know which 1 of 4 cleats she should reach for - and she would need to know if I want the stbd vang or the port vang.

I think that if the cleat is near the mast, the control is never used ... I lead all controls to the cockpit. I can see leaving halyards at the mast. But I also believe that the small, rounded roof of the cabin is not a place to be in bad weather on a small boat. My belief is that all lines should be managed from the cockpit. The only variation I have from that theme is my reef tacks are on a rams horn, so I do need to climb forward for that task.
I don't believe that you have to manage the cascading block if you tack the tail end to the mast and the working end to the fiddle flock (as Ted has shown). In that manner, I could have 8:1 with just one control line. The Harken diagram shows this.

 

[Doug4bass]

Have you considered a head knocker arraignment? Did that on my C270 and loved it.

 

[Ted]

Scott, when you do begin to race, you might consider delegating the vang adjustments to a crew member sitting on the rail. One less person in a small cockpit makes life easier especially for the ones that must be there. For short handed sailing, bring it aft into the cockpit like you suggested.

 

[dlochner]

Is it safe to assume that you plan on using a nice simple Harken cam cleat?

I agree with you, if you can't reach the control line from the cockpit, it won't be used. That explains why my outhaul is always set incorrectly.

Where's the mainsheet on your boat, mid boom or end boom? If it is mid boom, you need less vang because the mainsheet provides some of the downward control on the boom. If the sheet is at the end of the boom, you'll need more purchase.

One other thought, do you have a dodger or bimini? If I put too much vang on when going up wind, the boom lays on the bimini.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

A 12:1 cascade with a single control line should be fine for your boat. No need to provide low and high purchase power on a vang for a 27 foot boat but they are great for the main sheet. The high purchase power will make it easy to release the vang even when it' s heavily loaded.

Thanks, that's the insight that I am seeking. Except that I'm not sure that I want to add the second line for the mainsheet. Contrary to the cabin top lines that we manage fairly well, the mainsheet line (and other sheets that end up in the cockpit) is always a mess in the cockpit, and I'm not sure that I want to add another.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Is it safe to assume that you plan on using a nice simple Harken cam cleat?

I agree with you, if you can't reach the control line from the cockpit, it won't be used. That explains why my outhaul is always set incorrectly.

Where's the mainsheet on your boat, mid boom or end boom? If it is mid boom, you need less vang because the mainsheet provides some of the downward control on the boom. If the sheet is at the end of the boom, you'll need more purchase.

One other thought, do you have a dodger or bimini? If I put too much vang on when going up wind, the boom lays on the bimini.

I do like the Harken cleats, but I haven't purchased them yet for the cabin top controls. I have installed one near the helm for the furling line. My mainsheet is about 2/3 - 3/4 of the way out and it drops down to the traveler on the bridge deck, just aft of the companionway, so the mainsheet control line is usually on the cockpit floor. I'm changing those blocks out as well. The current blocks have seen 33 years of service and I anticipate a blow out, such as what happened to the vang fiddle blocks. There has been a lot of weather exposure in those years, but those Schaefer products do seem to hold up pretty well.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Have you considered a head knocker arraignment? Did that on my C270 and loved it.

I don't know what that is!

 

[dlochner]

I do like the Harken cleats, but I haven't purchased them yet for the cabin top controls. I have installed one near the helm for the furling line.

Compared to other cam cleats, the Harkens seem to be easier to cleat. That's why I like them. All cam cleats, Schaeffer, Ronstan, Harken, release easily, its the cleating that makes them superior.

Just to add to the confusion, are you looking for upwind or downwind vanging? Upwind vanging requires a lot more pressure, downwind not as much.

 

[Joe]

I could also be radically over-thinking this issue . But I will have the capability of leading a total of 12 lines aft, and that gives me the option to use 2 control lines for the vang if I want to.

Well I agree, you are overthinking this, radically. You don't need all this complication... a single control line to a line operated. fair lead equipped, cleat...such as clam, cam or spinlock style.... mounted near the hatch on the bulkhead... with a tail long enough to reach where you're sitting..(trust me it won't have to be too long.) A clutch will limit your willingness to use it regularly because it's inconvenient to open... and you'll never use the winch(unless you want to break your boom)... so you can put the cleat in a handy place right at the edge of the bulkhead. A double ended system is for crew hiking out.

I recommend a Garhauer Rigid vang, it's 20:1, and has a single 1/4" control line you can easily route to the cleat. Done... you won't be sorry.

 

[Dalliance]

Well I agree, you are overthinking this, radically. You don't need all this complication... a single control line to a line operated. fair lead equipped, cleat...such as clam, cam or spinlock style.... mounted near the hatch on the bulkhead... with a tail long enough to reach where you're sitting..(trust me it won't have to be too long.) A clutch will limit your willingness to use it regularly because it's inconvenient to open... and you'll never use the winch(unless you want to break your boom)... so you can put the cleat in a handy place right at the edge of the bulkhead. A double ended system is for crew hiking out.

I recommend a Garhauer Rigid vang, it's 20:1, and has a single 1/4" control line you can easily route to the cleat. Done... you won't be sorry.

Scott,
This is what I have on Dalliance, so I agree with with Joe and highly recommend it. No need for the winch. Don’t know if you have a boom kicker or topping lift, but I had a topping lift and wanted to get rid of it because it often snagged the battens and chafed the leach of the mainsail. I do have the line run though a clutch and that is not the best. Have been looking at the Harken cleat as the replacement.

 

[Jackdaw]

While it is possible to take a simple route here, a bit of planning and setup will create a very powerful and versatile vang system that is easy and fast to use for both cruising and racing. This setup is used on many modern racers and racer-cruisers.

The system involves a 4:1 or 6:1 with two additions:
A 2:1 multiplier using an extra turn and a dyneema strop
A double ended lower block that runs two ends to cabintop Harkin 150s

This creates a powerful vang system that can be operated by cruising crew in the cockpit, or by racing crew from either rail. The 12:1 makes it easy to play in most cases, and it always at hand.

Here is the mast side of the vang. You can see the 6:1 upper block and the 2x loop. The bottom block has been replaced with a double and two single blocks that split vang port and starboard.

Here is the port side, the starboard looks the same. The inboard Harken 150 with the all-aspect cage allows pulling it from anywhere, and having one on each side makes it very easy to use.

In practice, its very easy to use. Because of the limited amount of vang play, the lines never become unbalanced. And making sure that both are locked down becomes 2nd hand very quickly.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

As predicted, there is a wide variety of answers (which is good)! My takeaway so far is:
1. Dual line system for low throw - high throw option is not warranted for the vang. Nobody recognized this as a desired feature.
2. Higher purchase is desirable for hand load. 8:1 all the way up to 20:1 are the recommendations I agree with.

There seems to be a split in opinions about bringing the control line(s) back to the cockpit. There is also a split on using 2 controls or 1 for the vang. I can recognize that it is really a matter of personal preference. My preference is to bring 2 lines back to the cockpit and secure with cam cleats.

3. Jackdaw's setup is what I had seen in a diagram and had in mind for options (c) & (d). (I wasn't sure if that was considered 5:1 or 6:1 - I changed my mind as I edited the post). In (d), I was modifying the continuous line model with 2 separate lines. The low throw line would terminate at a becket on the double block and the strop for the cascading block would be a line fed thru the standup block at the base of the mast that leads back to the cockpit (instead of terminating at the mast base) for high throw.

Instead, I think I will use the continuous line method and a strop with cascading block for 12:1 purchase as illustrated by JD to bring both ends back to the cockpit on opposite sides. I like this option for single-handing because control of the vang is convenient on both sides. It doesn't add so much complexity for me to be wary of it. This can also be used in conjunction with a rigid vang or a boom kicker, which I haven't chosen yet.

JD introduces an option that I hadn't considered. I was going to purchase 2 stand-up blocks to secure to the roof at the base of the mast. Instead, I like that bar that he has mounted through the roof with multiple attachment holes for blocks. I've not seen that offered anywhere. Is that a custom job or can it be found somewhere?

 

[Jackdaw]

JD introduces an option that I hadn't considered. I was going to purchase 2 stand-up blocks to secure to the roof at the base of the mast. Instead, I like that bar that he has mounted through the roof with multiple attachment holes for blocks. I've not seen that offered anywhere. Is that a custom job or can it be found somewhere?

Kinda funny, it's the only Garhauer part on the boat. It's a single SS mast base plate, mounted in front instead of the side. Great for this application. The price has gone up a few bucks since I bought mine, but still a shockingly good deal at 17 bucks.

https://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=68

Better pic of the place in action.

 

[Jackdaw]

That plate was not an original thought of mine... the First 36.7 comes like that. I was trying to replicate it so both boats would have the exact same pit setup.